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Member (Idle past 3866 days) Posts: 70 From: Raleigh NC Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The God Hypothesis | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 383 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Excellent. Let's add that to our table.
Personally I see little similarity between the Buddhist eightfold path and Gellman's eightfold way beyond both seeking to tell us something about reality and Gellman's playful use of phraseology. But feel free to highlight further similarities if you think there are any.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
Personally I see little similarity between the Buddhist eightfold path and Gellman's eightfold way beyond both seeking to tell us something about reality and Gellman's playful use of phraseology. But feel free to highlight further similarities if you think there are any.
Of course you don't see beyond the enumeration and emphasis of the number 8.For you, Gellman was just noting the enumerations are similar. But Gellman was saying "as above, so below," sensing that the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own "elemental atomism" (?), referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.
Hence we see other physicists linking Human Consciousness to Quantum effects, and expanding upon Gellman with books like "The Tao of Physics," etc.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 383 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Kof writes: But Gellman was saying "as above, so below," sensing that the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own "elemental atomism" (?), referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality. Really? Was he? Where are you getting that from? I have read that Gell-Man's reference to Buddhism was intended as ironic.
quote: Link But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Gell-man was doing as you are asserting (namely concluding that "the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own elemental atomism referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.") That would make him a substance dualist wouldn't it? Now whether Gell-man is a substance dualist or not is irrelevant to the defensibility of substance duality is a proposition isn't it? So what is your point?
Kof writes: Hence we see other physicists linking Human Consciousness to Quantum effects, and expanding upon Gellman with books like "The Tao of Physics," etc. The Tao of Physics is exactly the sort of pop-science Cavediver was referring to:
SA writes: Buddhist have already made all the observation Quantum Physicist have made about the nature of our Universe. Cavediver writes: ![]() However, I will agree that pop-science accounts of the quantum nature of the Universe have more in common with Buddism that they do any particular quantum theory, and there-in probably lies your confusion. Message 14
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His Eightfold Way, which he named ironically after the Buddhist path to nirvana, draws sub-atomic particles together in a pattern akin to Mendeleev's Periodic Table of Elements. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Gell-man was doing as you are asserting (namely concluding that "the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own elemental atomism referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.") That would make him a substance dualist wouldn't it? Now whether Gell-man is a substance dualist or not is irrelevant to the defensibility of substance duality is a proposition isn't it? So what is your point?
Well, let's say that the assumptions, that Gellman was being ironic, as some writers infer he was,......then, his dualism is at least as relevant as what Cavediver has to say,... which is to merely pay lip service to his already decidedly bias and closed mindedness on this discussion. The Physicist who wrote Tao of Physics must speak for his own defense against laymen who assert that what they say is "pop-science accounts of the quantum nature of the Universe." But what I see is Gellman subtly, perhaps subconsciously, recognizing something at work inside the mind which is elemental to what he is recognizing externally in the real world. He seems to sense a metaphysical inference to a pattern which is revealing itself in both. That he organizes the Elemental Particles from which the twelve Families of the Chemical Elements appeared, he establishes a very similar pattern in both cases that may have influenced his comments. We see in the study of AI, that psychologists like Guilford have also been interested in this Pattern.Guilford explored the scope of the adult intellect by providing the concept of intelligence with a strong, comprehensive theoretical backing. The Structure-of-Intellect model (SI model) was designed as a cross classification system with intersections in the model providing the basis for abilities similar to periodic table in chemistry. In other words, the religious ideas ponder the working of the mind, within, while science organizes the external world in ways which mirror a repetitious pattern to the temple of our intelligence. I can not here present an argument for the things which would support Gellman's unconscious Freudian slips, be that what they were, but when we see that Gellman's work leads us to an analogous Chart of the Elemental Particles, one corresponding to the same derived by Mendeleev, at least suspicions ought arise that their is some metaphysical, if not religious, connection to QM.
This chart above was constructed before the Higgs paricle physics was even hypothesized, and some of the Bosons hve been re-defined or more clearly described and experimental observed since. But the general pattern illustrates how piece by piece, unaware of the pattern suggested here, scientists have been "filling in the spaces" that MUST(?) be filled in before we have The Truth. Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 383 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
It's easy to suggest pointlessly vague correlations in paragraphs of prose. But much more difficult to specify actual one to one comparisons between modern physics and Buddhism. Your post seems to be little more than a very long winded way of saying this:
That both modern science and Buddhism conclude that things are ordered in recognisable patterns is hardly a great revelation or cause for wonderment at the startling similarities between the two. I mean what is the alternative? To conclude that things are entirely random with no discernible patterns at all? You only have to watch the Sun rise each day to conclude "patterns". You don't need quantum theory.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
That both modern science and Buddhism conclude that things are ordered in recognisable patterns is hardly a great revelation or cause for wonderment at the startling similarities between the two. I mean what is the alternative? To conclude that things are entirely random with no discernible patterns at all? You only have to watch the Sun rise each day to conclude "patterns". You don't need quantum theory.
That would all probably be true. Unless Religion was actually telling us that only one special kind of Pattern exists by which man recognizes what is True about the Reality he inquires about. And, it would be equally important is Gellman had given Buddhism too much credit for the pattern he saw emerging, and Judaism too little:
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Eli Member (Idle past 3809 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
You need to brush up on your aleph beth a little better.
Looks like you are arbitrarily assigning letters to names and to doubles and mothers with no rhyme or reason. The three mothers are Aleph, then Shin and Mem. Air, fire, water. Doubles are named so because each letter has two pronounciations.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Unless Religion was actually telling us that ... If that was what religion was actually telling us, then religion might as well have told us "nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!" Because that would have been equally enlightening. It seems that what religion tells "us" is so obscure that you are the first person ever to figure out what it tells us. Either I should say hooray for you! ... or ... maybe you are not the first prophet designated by God to tell us what his scriptures really mean. Maybe you're just another guy.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
If that was what religion was actually telling us, then religion might as well have told us "nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!" Because that would have been equally enlightening. It seems that what religion tells "us" is so obscure that you are the first person ever to figure out what it tells us. Either I should say hooray for you! ... or ... maybe you are not the first prophet designated by God to tell us what his scriptures really mean. Maybe you're just another guy.
1) The reason that the religious people killed all the prophets was that what they said had never been said before without the generation which heard it also killing them, (and now even you "science savvy" people?). 2) What I posted, however, is not my observation entirely.I do observe that there is a connection to these ideas when Graphically Organized. That connection does seem to support the hypothesis that there is a Pattern which re-occurs again and again as men organize, order, and establish whole over views of various studies and topics. 3) The people who have said this long before myself were called Kabbalist.They we Jews, and in most cases as far as I understand, very religious and theologically knowledgeable people. But what they were studying and researching apparently was focused on this idea, here. 4) The point of this Pattern is that it implies that there is a required (and also validating) organization to everything man conceives, or is able to conceive, in regard to the external world and his own ability to model that world inside his head. 5) ...and there is evidence that this can be re-discovered in the Bible where various hints and geometries were used to incorporate this Kabbalah into scripture.In those Jewish scriptures there is a reference to the Urim and Thummim, [Ex 28:30]. Though long lost to the religious community, and most certainly never searched for, even vehemently impeded and suppressed, the same religious community has carried forward the Bible wherein the prophets of Kabbalah have re-discovered it again and again. 6) In regard to ""nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!"Isaiah had a response that anticipated such a reaction which I am sure always confronted those Kabbalist of earlier times in an angry protest against them. The "crime" of having an original thought which fired up the jealousy of smart people more prone to criticism and an authoritative use of their Establishments to keep "newbies" out said stuff like, "Sav, lasav, kav, lakav, seer shem." 13 Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them [merely monotonous repeatings of]:precept upon precept, (sav), precept upon precept, (lasav), rule upon rule, (kav), rule upon rule; (lakav), here a little, (seer), there a little, (shem).... that they may go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken. Or simply,... Isaiah 28:13GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) 13 The Lord speaks utter nonsense to them. That is why they will fall backwards. That is why they will be hurt, trapped, and captured.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
You need to brush up on your aleph beth a little better. Looks like you are arbitrarily assigning letters to names and to doubles and mothers with no rhyme or reason. The three mothers are Aleph, then Shin and Mem.
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kofh2u writes:
That's what I always say. Intelligence can only operate within the system.
The ID people are off track since Intelligence is the ability to understand Reality, not to manufacture it. kofh2u writes:
Intelligence is the measure of one's ability to operate within the system. It depends on observation of the system and derivation of correct - i.e. "working" - cause-and-effect relationships within the system. If you can figure out what makes it go, you can make it go. Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another. Conversely, intelligence can't operate on anything outside the sytem. What we can't observe, we can't understand. If "Truth" is beyond the understanding of intelligence, then "Truth" is irrelevant to human beings. If God is "Truth", then God is irrelevant.
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Eli Member (Idle past 3809 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
Not even close.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 383 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
If I were to provide you with a bar graph of Manchester United's year on year goal tally and a another bar graph showing monthly rainfall in Berlin do you think we could conclude that these two thing share deep metaphysical underpinnings because they look pictorially similar?
Taking disparate things and representing them in a pictorially similar fashion demonstrates nothing but a human tendency to exhibit data pictorially.
Kof writes: And, it would be equally important is Gellman had given Buddhism too much credit for the pattern he saw emerging, and Judaism too little: Ah. So it is Judaism rather than Buddhism whose prescience and equivalence to modern physics we should be marveling at? I guess everyone wants their preferred brand of mysticism to be the one that is most in line with scientific findings. But why are advocates of mysticism so eager to have their beliefs validated in this way?
Kof writes: Unless Religion was actually telling us that only one special kind of Pattern exists by which man recognizes what is True about the Reality he inquires about. Can you reveal to the rest of us what this special pattern is?
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
kofh2u writes:
Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another. Ringo:Intelligence is the measure of one's ability to operate within the system. If God is "Truth", then God is irrelevant.
Measuring Intelligence is called IQ, which is established ONLY by measuring whether the responses sre true, not contingent upon any system at all. The correspondence between Reality and what one says is true must not be false to count towards the measure of Intelligence.
Intelligence is Truth, expressed or demonstrated in the thinking of someone.
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kofh2u writes:
You have that backwards. "True" is only true within a given system. That's why black people tend to score poorly on "white" IQ tests - because what's "true" in the white culture is not necessarily true in theirs.
Measuring Intelligence is called IQ, which is established ONLY by measuring whether the responses sre true, not contingent upon any system at all. kofh2 writes:
Intelligence can be demonstrated in a situation where there are no other people - e.g. if you're marooned on an island. In that case, you survive or not depending on how "real" your perception of the "truth" is. Intelligence is Truth, expressed or demonstrated in the thinking of someone. However, in a social situation, truth has a lot to do with consensus. The consensus will say that when the light is red you should stop, even if you perceive the "truth' as full speed ahead. Real situations often require group truth rather than individual truth.
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