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Author | Topic: Who Made God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 7433 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Are you actually claiming religion doesn't change? Are you claiming Christianity hasn't changed? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I meant that jar makes a case that the book evolved and changed even during its inception. While evidence shows this to be true, I sense a defense of the earlier world view and a disdain for the later worldview within the book itself. Religions change because people change. Science and Scientism have now become the dominant belief system. Look at your boys...The New Atheists.
They essentially believe: Regarding the New Atheists(as opposed to older classical arguments regarding atheism, the last two points are indicative of the newer group. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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Theodoric Member Posts: 7433 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.8
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None of these people speak for me. I am not a proponent of New Atheism, which as a movement is dead.
Atheist are not a monolithic group. Atheism is nothing like religion. It is a non belief in a deity. Nothing more. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0
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But Phat, there is no "earlier worldview™" or "later worldview within the book itself™". You are trying to impose a uniformity and certainty that simply does not exist within either the writings or the actual history. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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ICANT Member (Idle past 274 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined:
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Hi Phat,
I just came back for a short visit and noticed this topic close to the top of the list and read the following statement about God and time.
Phat time does not exist where God resides. Time as you and I know it will cease to exist when the angel stands with one foot on land and one on sea and declares that time shall be no longer. quote: Forever and ever is eternal existence and answers the question "Who Made God". God is eternal in existence. But this verse declares that time will cease to exist at some point in future existence. If God does not exist eternally, and has created the universe. The universe has to have existed eternally, due to the fact it exists today. Since energy and matter can not be created or destroyed they had to have existed eternally. The biggest problem I have with the Standard Theory is that it requires me to have faith in and believe that the universe existed in an entity smaller than an atom that expanded into the universe we see today. That assumption has to be accepted as a fact. Which requires more faith than to believe that an all powerful God created the universe, and everything in it. I know most here say they do not have faith. Either the universe has always existed in some form or it had a beginning to exist. To believe the universe had a beginning to exist from non existence would take a lot more faith than I have. God Bless "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Was Pauls message the same as Jesus message then?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Cameron McAllister is another of the RZIM group that provides a stimulating an honest cultural commentary on the times and beliefs which we all share and individually hold.
https://www.rzim.org/listen/thinking-out-loud Note the list of topics. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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PaulK Member Posts: 17179 Joined:
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So what is it with all this audio and video that you never bother to quote ? It’s as if you’re afraid that we’ll spot the dishonesty.
And I’ll note that choosing to associate with Ravi Zacharias looks like a bad sign to me.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 7433 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Ravi is a known and admitted fraud.
http://raviwatch.com Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
First, that is simply silly. Just as there is no "Bible ™" or "earlier worldview™" or "later worldview within the book itself™" there is no "Jesus message™" or "Paul's message™".
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I don't know the extent and to what degree, Ravi was found in his sins. Everyone must ultimately be accountable for their actions. I don't judge the overall character of a man by the sins which he commits. There is not one of you (nor I) who do not have a skeleton or two in their closet. And the quality of the apologetic arguments is not dependent on the character flaws...real, imagined, exaggerated or proven--that Zacharias had done. Of course, to you, it discredits any other intelligence the man may have...but even dismissing his input does not detract from the other apologists under the ministry. Overall, I still rate that ministry as better than average content and I support the world views espoused. This whole idea that only the Christian apologists lie and con people is unrealistic. I suppose that you think that Dawkins, Harris, Carrier, (the late Hitchens) and Dennet have sterling character and are above reproach.
Which would tend to be a biased belief in human character being selective? But I will agree with you to strike Ravi's credibility, for the sake of argument. I maintain that the apologists at RZIM are honest and thoughtful.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Then why did you once claim that Paul was trying to start a new religion?
And why does your interpretation of Christianity differ from the mainstream? (And why does ringo, an atheist, agree with you and defend a worldview based on interpretation of Genesis 3 and Matthew 25? Finally, why are *most* of the apologist's liars and conmen? I have yet to understand the charge. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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ringo Member Posts: 19784 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
If the apologetics are high-quality, why do you keep refusing to discuss them with us? “Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.” -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
I didn't make the claim but simply pointed out the evidence and ALL of the evidence says that Paul was trying to market a new religion. BUT there was never "Paul's message™" rather the message changed over time as it became necessary to try to apologize for the utter failings of what was earlier marketed. Paul started as did all the other folk marketing the Christology marketing a short term "the end is not just nie, it's here" product. It was based on the belief that Jesus was not simply mistaken when he said the end would come within the lifetime of his immediate audience of that moment. It was probably the first major crisis of faith and caused a total rewrite of the marketing spiel. Paul's message changed over time and evolved to something entirely different than the early product marketed.
I don't interpret Christianity. I acknowledge that the others try to market what they actually wrote and claim to believe. I simply point out when their writings and marketing contradicts what is actually written in the Bible and the Creeds and reality and factual Christian history.
Again, what does the evidence show?
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In the final analysis, you would conclude that the "evidence" showed precisely what it showed...and that the book should be approached with such scientific methodology. I argue that the Bible is (and should be) approached with more than simple scientific methodology. You guys seem to think that science alone echos our (way of knowing things--Stile) and dismiss Faith & Belief and subjective experience as being in any way comparable. It is why you charge believers with providing evidence for you. (A wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign) you tell everyone not to *drink the Koolaid* because you were warned years ago by your sweet mama never to trust those carny barkers known as Christian Apologists and Preachers. She must have seen evidence that they wre *all* fake. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
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