Who Made God?

If your best science cannot address the very existence of such a thing then how can any science address any of its attributes?But, I see my error. If the opening axiom is "it exists" then I'm in the wrong thread and will try to gracefully bow out without further stepping on my dick.

It all has to do with a deception. Now, I don't mean to suggest that everyone is willingly and knowingly wicked. What I do mean to suggest is that a relationship with Jesus Christ...now possible through the Spirit of God..is something that people become drawn to and love. Without loving this truth, people merely become in love with human intellectualism and demand signs and proof. This passage suggests that God Himself will thus send a delusion and people will believe the lie. The question is what this lie is?Personally, I think that when people prefer that Jesus not exist in essence believe the lie that humanity on a dust speck will figure out the mystery of the universe and of meaning in life without wanting any need of relationship with God...made possible through His Son.
Quite honestly, I think that humans were meant to have communion with God through the Holy Spirit and awareness of Jesus Christ...messenger to humanity.Granted I'm not being scientifically logical, but my premise is that this relationship is indeed a mystery and yet is real.

I agree that science is not the place to look for the attributes of any intelligent first cause, but the point I was trying to make is not about any attributes of that intelligence. It is simply that the idea of an eternal existence can be explained using what is currently theoretical science. It is just one possible explanation as to the answer of "Who Made God". The answer if this speculation is correct is that God, (or any other intelligent first cause) did not require a creator because he/she/it just always was and always will be. I think it's just a case of that I probably didn't make my point clear enough. I wasn't arguing for the existence of God but only that if God exists that there is at least one plausible answer to the question asked in the title of the OP. Bragging again are we.....

Any belief can have its own internally consistent logic. Logic in itself is not an indicator of reality.The problem is that there are so many logically consistent gods, each with his own definite character. You seem to concede that some of them are made up. I'm just wondering why you think one is different.Sure, there could be one real god and a whole passle of made-up ones - but how do you know yours is the real one?

All that I can claim is that He is the real One in my belief. I could tell you with confidence that He also desires to love and commune with you and has the power to give you eternal life. Would it do any good, knowing your beliefs and family history as I do? Would it be necessary and expected for me to push my belief?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This has always been a puzzle to me. Believers always say this, but it's plainly false, if He wanted to talk to me He can, I'm here and happy to listen. Never has. Odd that.

Now. you can have what ever belief you want. When it comes to others, it is 'can you show that your belief is true' is the question. What can you show me ??? How can you provide what you believe to be true without what is known as 'confirmation bias'? Can you find a way to take testimony of people away, and show that your belief is more than "warm fuzzy feelings"/

That sounds a bit like somebody saying his wife/girlfriend is the "only one" for him. How do you distinguish between "the best of many" (which only includes the ones you've met) and "only one exists"? Is it "nesessary and espected" for me to push my belief that Coca-Cola is the only "real" soft drink?

Sounds like something that could be said of anyone, about pretty much anything.

Hi TangleYou're walking down the street and there is a blind street person who is asking for a few coins. You feel the need to help this person and so you take him with you to the deli and buy him a meal.I'm a Christian, and as such, I would suggest that was God speaking to you and you did indeed listen. An atheist would say that this feeling and action is just something that has culturally and socially evolved over thousands of years from a completely natural, non-moral and non-intelligent beginning.We have no way of proving which is correct. We all have our own specific beliefs but hopefully that gives you an idea of what Phat is talking about.

But it wasn't God speaking at all was it? There were no words or any indication at all that the motivation came from outside the individual. Nothing.The instinct is also there in Muslims and atheists so, obviously, it can't have anything to do with being a Christian. That's correct - and unlike the God thing, we have evidence for it and can see it happening in the brain using fMRI scans. The thing is, if you think that your God is interfering with your emotions in a direct and physical way such that we can actually see parts of the brain being stimulated by moral emotions then there's no such thing as free will.But all this aside, when a believer says that God speaks to him, they give the the impression that this is a personal and direct experience, but when quizzed, it turns out to be a very, very indirect affair.To admit that they actually converse with god is an admission of mental derangement because we all know that it doesn't actually happen that way - it's a one way process that results in a requirement to attribute a reply through indirect means, which to everybody else are simply everyday, common phenomenon.

Absolutely. That was the point. It is my belief as a Christian that God speaks through our hearts, minds and imaginations. I wasn’t suggesting that it was an audible voice, and as I said there is no way to prove that it is anything external to the individual. I agree that God speaks to the hearts, minds and imaginations of all mankind and not just Christians. You can’t see a thought with a brain scan. An idea is non-physical. You can see the impact that an idea has on the brain but that tells us nothing about the impetus for the thought itself. I don’t see it as God interfering. I believe that God in general implants in our minds a concept of doing the loving thing and we have the free will to accept or reject the unselfish loving thought or action. I think that it sometimes is a direct experience. A number of years ago out of nowhere I felt that I should go and become a lay-reader in our church. I hadn't considered it previously but I felt this urge that that was what I should do. One of the things that the lay-readers did in that church, was to go into a Montreal senior’s residence and lead a Sunday worship service. This in turn led to a ministry, (over 30 years so far), with seniors leading sing-a-longs. I choose to believe that it was God that put that idea into my head but I obviously have no conclusive proof of that.However, I think that is more the exception than the rule. I think God is that still small voice or conscience that nudges us towards having loving unselfish hearts. That is true of my experience but I can’t speak for anyone else. That is how it appears but there is a great many things about our existence that aren't what they appear.BTW. I think we may be a tad off topic.

It looks like we're done - you simply believe something for which there isn't a scrap of evidence yet there's an everyday explanation and I find that totally preposterous, but that's hardly new here

After a skip and hop through this thread I have a few thoughts on the various subjects.Phat's inspiration for the thread was a book by Ravi Zacharias and Norman Geisler, both well respected Christian teachers, but I don't see where any of it was spelled out so all I can say is I'm sure it's a good solid Christian presentation.Somebody brought up all the various gods, Zeus, Thor, etc., might as well add Horus, Isis, Molech, Tammuz, Krishna and all the hundreds of Hindu deities and all the rest from all the nations. According to the people who worship them, these are not human inventions, they are real living entities. According to the Bible they are demons, fallen angels who followed Satan when he fell from grace. Because of the Fall Satan became "the prince of this world" and his demonic hordes became the "gods" that have seduced human beings ever since. The various witch doctors or shamans of the varous religions acquire "supernatural" powers by getting themselves possessed by these entities. It's all because Adam and Eve disobeyed the true God and became captive to the evil powers.God however did promise to save Adam and His posterity and gave that promise all the way back in Eden, to send the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman that would crush the head of Satan, and He repeated this promise to His various prophets thereafter. The original Patriarchs from Seth to Noah all believed in the promised Messiah. So did Job who spoke of expecting some day to see his Redeemer in the flesh, so did Abraham, Moses and all the judges and prophets of Israel and some of the kings expect Him etc. etc. etc. The OT is full of the promises of God to send His Messiah to save His people from their sins.None of this is made up, it's all real.GDR seems to think that all human beings hear from God and he gave the illustration of being moved to help a homeless person. From the point of view of Biblical theology that is wrong. That's just conscience, which all human beings have to one extent or another, a remnant of our having been created in the image of God, but not a direct hearing from God.The human spirit that was in intimate contact with God before the Fall in Eden was lost, that was the main consequence of the Fall, so fallen humanity is no longer are able to communicate with God through our spirit. For that to be possible we must be born again as Jesus put it, and that comes through believing who Jesus is as the Bible presents Him and recognizing that He is the Messiah who died to pay for our sins so that our spirit and our communication with God COULD be restored that was lost through original sin in Eden. Those who repent and believe and are born again DO hear from God -- in many ways, not audibly however -- audible voices are from demons as are many other "supernatural" phenomena.People have always had experiences of the "gods" and know by experience that they are real. But the way Christians who believe in the Bible know the reality of God is by believing what the Bible says, believing the witnesses who testify to their experiences of the work of the true God in this world. It's not a blind faith, and it's not an experience, you are believing in testimony. And most Christians will tell you that once they truly believe then they also do experience God in various ways, speaking in a personal way through His word being the most common I suppose.

Alternatively, it's all made up and none of it's real.If you want to make any further progress after asserting something to be real, you need to demonstrate that it is real. No-one in a few thousand years of trying has ever done so. I really doubt that you're any different.