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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 346 of 383 (693185)
03-12-2013 10:57 AM


Abolish does not mean Forbidden
I will not speak of the so-called "authentic letters of Paul."
I will speak of some higher critics "preferred letters of Paul."
Now one of the "preferred letters" is Romans.
In Romans chapter 14 and 15 we can see that the ordinances may have been abolished but the saints had the freedom to practice some, as long as they received one another.
I would request that you read Romans 14. Issues of diet are touching on Levitical ordinances. Paul did not FORBID eating according to these ordinances.
What Paul did do is teach the believers to RECEIVE one another anyway merely because Christ had received each of them. He does not say "I forbid you to adhere to Jewish ordinances." His tone is more "You Christians must receive one another as brothers and not pass judgement upon each other based on ordinances."
Again, I leave it to the reader to read the 14th chapter of this "preferred letter of Paul".
I believe Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Ephesians 2:14-15 as well as the whole book of Ephesians.
However, by examining Romans I do not regard the abolishing of the laws in ordinances to be a PROHIBITION against some weaker believers to still practice some ordinances.
"Now him who is weak in faith receive, [but] not for the purpose of passing judgments on his considerations.
One believes that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables." (Rom. 14:1,2)
Paul does not forbid ordinances in eating. He did not say "Since the law in ordinances is abolished you are strictly forbidden to practice dietary ordinances."
Abolishing the law in ordincances in commandments does not go this far. It does not make new law about not keeping laws. "Thou Shalt Not Eat According to Oral or Written Torah Ordinances."
If Paul is the author of Hebrews I might not suggest the sacrifices were among these ordincances to be tolerated for the weaker believers. And the "prefered letter" of Galations is similar.
I don't think Paul said the weaker Christian brothers should go ahead and offer blood sacrifices.
No. But in Romans he instructs the saints to be accomodating towards the weaker brothers and sisters who still like ordinances. He is treaching a genuinely liberal attitude of acceptance without judging.
Paul could be firm and flexible. What a Christian brothers. What a pioneer to help believers through the church life of the one new man.
"One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike, Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and he who eats, eats to the Lord ... For none of us lives to himself, and none of dies to himself; For whether we live, we live to the Lord, and whether we die, we die to the Lord ..." (v.6,7)
Paul turns the focus towards Jesus Christ the Lord.
Paul says do not judge one another because of these practices.
Paul says " Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (15:7)
In this way the law of ordinances is abolished yet it is not fully prohibited. It is simple not a criteria of receiving one another in the Christian church. The enmity is abolished. The bad feeling arising that "You are not practicing as I am!" is abolished.
Also in the "preferred letter" of Paul of Romans Paul says the saints are discharged from the law.
"But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newnes of spirit and not in oldness of letter." (Romans 7:6)
Discharged from the law, abolished the law in oridances and commandments therefore is not the establishing of ANTI-law laws. In the same Roman letter there is toleration and accomodation to the believers who are just as "discharge" as Paul.
They may be weaker in faith and still cling to ordinances of either Jewish kind or a Gentile kind. The "one new man" calls for love and non-judgmental attitidudes. The one new man calls for saints in different cultures to be brought together in Christ receiving one another as Christ has received them.
I see no contradiction between Ephesians 2:14-15 and Romans 14,15.
\[b\]"
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 347 of 383 (693265)
03-13-2013 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by purpledawn
03-11-2013 6:50 PM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
...No law is a source of justification or salvation. That doesn't mean we don't follow the laws per their respective culture or society for day to day life.
Paul didn't abolish anything other than the belief that one could acquire justification or salvation through written laws.
I agree with that.
I guess I didn't make my suggestion clear in post 312 ( EvC Forum: Have You Ever Read Ephesians?). That was about the 'how'. I had mentioned that I like Wuest’s note on the meaning of ‘abolished’ on Eph 2:15.
The word 'abolished' is karargeo, 'to render inoperative.'
Wuest's translation of Eph 2:14,15 reads:
For He Himself is our peace, the One who made the both one, having broken down the middle wall of the partition, the enmity, in is flesh He rendered inoperative the law of the commandments in ordinances, in order that the two He might create in Himself, resulting in one new man, making peace.
I think 'rendered inoperative' and is different than 'destroy' in Mat 5:17 - anyway, there is a different Greek word in Matthew than in Romans.
Rom 7:1-6 show how He (Christ) rendered the law inoperative. It was by terminating man as the husband. Death frees a man or a woman from the bond of marriage. Paul is saying in Romans that we died with Christ. That death makes us dead to the law. The trend of though is a little complicated in these verses because at one point we are viewed and the wife and at another point as the husband.
7:4 So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ
I think the verses in Romans and Galatians that I quoted show this same thought. There are phrases like 'not under law', 'freed from the law', 'dead to the law', 'discharged from the law', 'the end of the law' and 'the things which I have destroyed.' Romans 7:6 uses the same word katargo, where it is translated 'discharged'. So, I believe the concept is the same in Romans and Galatians. There has to be some explanation of how we are 'discharged from the law' and yet the Law remains in force.
I think this can explain how the Law is not destroyed (c.f. Matt 5:17), yet our relationship to the Law can be changed because the law, still existing, is 'rendered inoperative'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by purpledawn, posted 03-11-2013 6:50 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by jaywill, posted 03-15-2013 5:42 PM Richh has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 348 of 383 (693464)
03-15-2013 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Richh
03-13-2013 9:46 AM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
Richh,
I would like to ask you to expound if you can on a perculiar phrase in \[b\]Galatians 5:23 - " ... against such things there is no law"
This little last phrase to Paul's explanation of some of the fruits of the Spirit has always touched me. Here is the whole positive section on fruits with that phrase in context.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Gal. 5:22,23)
Why do you think the brother adds this "against such things there is no law"?
Doesn't this call for us understanding the whole matter of walking in the Spirit from another angle it seems?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Richh, posted 03-13-2013 9:46 AM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Richh, posted 03-17-2013 10:55 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 349 of 383 (693560)
03-17-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by jaywill
03-15-2013 5:42 PM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
I would like to ask you to expound if you can on a peculiar phrase in Galatians 5:23 - " ... against such things there is no law"
...
Why do you think the brother adds this "against such things there is no law"?
Doesn't this call for us understanding the whole matter of walking in the Spirit from another angle it seems?
Paul's main burden in Galatians is to deal with the law and the dispensation of law. Your quote is near the end of Galatians, the culmination of the argument of this epistle.
The subject of the law is not a simple one to explain (see post 347). For example, Ephesians 2:15 seems to contradict Matthew 5:17. It will be hard to cover all the things about the law mentioned in the Bible. I gathered some of them.
The law is called the testimony of God in Leviticus; the ark is called the ark of the testimony and the tabernacle is called the tabernacle of testimony. The law is ever the testimony of God. God still desires to have His testimony lived out. God desires man to express Him. The question is how.
Galatians says ‘But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.’ Romans 8:4 says, ‘That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit.’ The result of the Spirit of God coming into man, into man’s spirit, and man walking according to Spirit (and spirit), is that man is enabled to spontaneously ‘live out God.’
I gathered some verses from Galatians to follow the train of Paul's thought there. There are some things the law can od and some things it cannot do. And there is something that the law is. I added some verses from Romans and I Timothy too, but I don't have time to say more now.
RcV Galatians 2:16 And knowing that a man is not justified out of works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we also have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified out of faith in Christ and not out of the works of law, because out of the works of law no flesh will be justified.
2:19 For I through law have died to law that I might live to God.
2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing.
3:2 This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
3:10 For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.
3:11 And that by law no one is justified before God is evident because, The righteous one shall have life and live by faith;
3:12 But the law is not of faith, yet, He who does them shall live because of them.
3:13 Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree;
3:14 In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
3:17 And I say this: A covenant previously ratified by God, the law, having come four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul so as to make the promise of none effect.
3:18 For if the inheritance is of law, it is no longer of promise; but to Abraham God has graciously given it through promise.
3:21 Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law.
3:22 But the Scripture has shut up all under sin in order that the promise out of faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
3:23 But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed.
3:24 So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law,
4:5 That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship.
4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father!
4:7 So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God.
4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one of the maidservant and cone of the free woman.
4:23 However the one of the maidservant was born according to the flesh, but the one of the free woman was born through promise.
5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
5:4 You have been brought to nought, separated from Christ, you who are being justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5:5 For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness.
5:13 For you were called for freedom, brothers; only do not turn this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
5:23 Meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully
1:9 And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,
1:10 For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,
Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, You shall not covet.
7:12 So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.
7:13 Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin.
8:3 For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

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Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 350 of 383 (693793)
03-20-2013 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
01-09-2013 2:24 PM


Re: The Riches of Christ
quote:
Anyway, back to Ephesians.
NIV writes:
Eph 3:7-19-- I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery,...
...to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
To explain the unsearchable riches of the anointing(also the Anointed One)and to make plain the administration of this mystery(the message, maybe?) which was previously hidden in God who created all things.
First, let me say that I totally agree with you that the anointing we received from Christ the Anointed One is one of the greatest unsearchable riches of Christ for us to experience and share with others. The Anointing brings God to us - how marvelous is this! Maybe I should stop here, but...
Have you ever heard anyone ‘evangelize the unsearchable riches of Christ’? That is the literal translation of the phrase 'preach ... the unsearchable riches of Christ'. Have you ever ‘evangelized’ the unsearchable riches of Christ? I guess this is what we all do when we preach the gospel - we proclaim some of the riches of Christ that we have experienced. Could you list some other ‘unsearchable riches’ of Christ? I think Paul lists some in the book of Colossians. That epistle is very Christ-centric.
(I like your posts because you bring everything down to earth. I’m sure you can see from my posts that I am ‘technical’ in my approach. I hope I am not too ‘ethereal’, but let me proceed)
You can see that some translations omit the concept of ‘evangelize’, e.g., the NAS and NIV below, but you can see that Darby is careful to retain it as 'the glad tidings'. He doesn't just use the work 'preach'. But we should preach the unsearchable riches of Christ to...
NAS Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
NIV Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
DBY Ephesians 3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ,
The word ‘evangelize’ means to preach the gospel. It is a compound word in Greek 'eu' + 'aggelizo'. 'Eu' means good and 'aggelizo' is the verb form of the word for angel, or messenger. Evangelists are messengers bringing the good message - they are ‘angelizers’.
The word ‘evangelize’ in Greek can be used to refer to the message or to indicate the persons to whom the message was delivered. So, to ‘evangelize the unsearchable riches of Christ’ is to tell people how good Jesus is. Christ’s riches are ‘good news’ to us.
Here are some verses that show the versatility of the word evalgelize in Greek.
NAS Acts 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ - 'evangelize Jesus as the Christ'
NAS Acts 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. - 'evangelize the word'
NAS Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. - 'evangelize regarding the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ'
NAS Acts 8:25 And so, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans. - 'evangelized the Samaritans'
NAS Acts 8:35 And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. - 'evangelized Jesus'
NAS Acts 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea. - 'evangelizing all the cities'
NAS Acts 10:36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--'evangelizing peace'
NAS Acts 13:32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 'evangelizing the good news of the promise'
All in all, there is too much 'good news' in all of these verses - unsearchable! Sometimes we forget. Just recounting this reminded me of the riches!

This message is a reply to:
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 351 of 383 (694904)
03-30-2013 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
01-21-2013 8:13 AM


Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
quote:
The letter is no different than the copious books at a Christian bookstore all trying to tell the believer how to apply the "word of God" to current issues.
I'm not sure that you can back this statement up with evidence. That is, I don't think you could produce any early Christian writing that matches the caliber of Ephesians.
I wanted to add this additional note from F.W. Farrar, The Life and Work of St. Paul starting at p. 486, Vol. 2. It presents the argument from style quite well. It begins with a comparison of Colossians and Ephesians. Although this was extracted from a single paragraph I have broken it up into several paragraphs for readability and have included the middle of the paragraph here.
Even if we regard it as probable that anyone could have poured forth truths so exalted, and moral teachings so pure and profound, in an epistle by which he deliberately intended to deceive the Church and the world, it is not possible that one actuated by such a purpose should successfully imitate the glow and rush of feeling which marks the other writings of the Apostle, and expresses itself in the to-and-fro-conflicting eddies of thought, in the one great flow of utterance and purpose. The style of St. Paul may be compared to a great tide advancing irresistibly towards the destined shore, but broken and rippled over every wave of its broad expanse, and liable at any moment to mighty refluences as it foams and swells about opposing sandbank or rocky cape. With even more exactness we might compare it to a river whose pure waters, at every interspace of calm, reflect as a mirror the hues of heaven, but which is liable to the rushing influx of mountain torrents, and whose reflected images are only dimly discernable in the ten thousand fragments of quivering colour, when its surface is swept by ruffling winds. If we make the difficult concession that any other mind that that of St. Paul could have originated the majestic statement of Christian truth which is enshrined in the doctrinal part of the Epistle, we may still safely assert, on literary grounds alone, that no writer, desirous to gain a hearing for such high revelations, could so have so completely merged his own individuality in that of another as to imitate the involutions of parentheses, the digressions at a word, the superimposition of a minor current of feeling over another that is flowing steadily beneath it, the unconscious recurrence of haunting expressions, the struggle and strain to find a worthy utterance for thoughts and feelings which burst through the feeble bands of language, the dominance of the syllogism of emotion over the syllogism of grammar - the many minute characteristics which stamp so ineffaceable an impress on the Apostle’s undisputed works.
There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Farrar has ‘eaten the word’ in Colossians and Ephesians and found it hearty food.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 01-21-2013 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:46 AM Richh has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 352 of 383 (694933)
03-31-2013 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Richh
03-30-2013 3:29 PM


Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
Goodspeed on Ephesians
But if a name and an identity be demanded for the author of Ephesians, the name of Onesimus of Ephesus comes at once to the mind. The Pauline corpus came into being in the days when Onesimus and Polycarp seem to have been active in Christian work in AsiaPolycarp in Smyrna and Onesimus in Ephesus. Onesimus may have been the Laodicean Christian who brought Colossians-Philemon to Ephesus; who so likely to have cherished and pored over them as he? He may have been the collector of the Pauline corpus, of which he thus had the nucleus. And he may have been the writer of the great preface which we know as Ephesians, building thus a splendid monument to his great friend and teacher, who had saved him from slavery and paganism and opened before him a new life. One would like to think so.
Passion and inspiration are powerful tools. Just because Paul may not have written it, doesn't mean it wasn't inspired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Richh, posted 03-30-2013 3:29 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 353 of 383 (695053)
04-02-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by purpledawn
03-31-2013 4:46 AM


Goodspeed on Ephesians & Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
I found this interesting note in F. F. Bruce, The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon and to the Ephesians in section 3 of the introduction to Philemon, page 200, (3) Why was the letter preserved? Perhaps you will find it so too.
Here we come to those features of John Knox's Philemon among the Letters of Paul which make it one of the most important and fascinating studies of this letter ever to have been published.
Knox’s work took shape against the background of the Chicago school of NT studies led by Edgar J. Goodspeed. Goodspeed pioneered the view that the Pauline corpus of ten letters (that is, lacking the three Pastorals) was edited and published at Ephesus about the end of the first century A.D., and that the document which we know as the letter to the Ephesians was composed by the editor to server as an introduction to the corpus. Other members of the school undertook supporting studies, and Knox’s book belongs to this category.
Knox accepts the general Goodspeed position and goes on toe suggest a reason for the inclusion of Philemon in the ten-letter corpus. It was included because it meant very much to the man who played a prominent part in the publication of the corpus - namely, Onesimus.
Here is his argument. When Ignatius, bishop of Antioch in Syria, was being taken to Rome for execution about A.D. 110, he was visited in Smyrna by the bishop of Ephesus, who was named Onesimus. But why should one connect this Onesimus with the Onesimus who figures in the letter to Philemon fifty years earlier.
Because, says, Knox, Ignatius shows himself familiar with the letter with the writes a letter of thanks to the church of Ephesus. Ignatius’s letter to the Ephesians is, indeed, one of the few places in patristic literature which clearly echoes the language of the letter to Philemon. Not only so, but the part of Ignatius’s letter which echoes the language of the letter to Philemon is the part which mentions Bishop Onesimus - the first 6 chapters. In these six chapters the bishop is mentioned 14 times; in the remaining 15 chapters he is not mentioned at all (apart from one more general reference to the bishop’s office; obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undisturbed mind).
This consideration is impressive. One especially impressive point is that, just as Paul plays on the meaning of Onesimus’s name (profitable) when he says to Philemon, may I have this ‘profit’ from you (v. 20), so apparently does Ignatius when he writes to the Ephesian church, may I always have ‘profit’ form you (2:2).
All this does not demonstrate the identify of the two Onesimi; it could simply be that the name of the bishop of Ephesus reminded Ignatius of the Onesimus whom Paul befriended. As the earlier Onesimus, formerly unprofitable, was henceforth going to be as profitable as his name promised, so Onesimus of Ephesus was eminently worthy of that well-loved name. But the identification is not impossible one might go further and say that is not improbable. We have no idea how old Paul’s Onesimus was when he wrote about him; but a young man in his later teens or early twenties at that time would be about seventy by the time of Ignatius’s martyrdom - not a incredible age for a bishop in those days,
Knox then ventures farther in his reconstruction of the situation. If (as the Goodspeed school held) Ephesus was the place where the Pauline corpus was first published, early in the second century, then the Onesimus of Ignatius’s letter was bishop of Ephesus around that time and must have had some responsibility with regard to the editing of the corpus. Why should he not have been the editor himself? If so, we need look no farther for the reason for the careful preservation of the letter to Philemon and its inclusion in the corpus of Paul’s letters. But if Onesimus was the editor of the corpus, then (according to the Goodspeed school) he would have been author of the canonical letter to the Ephesians. If that were so, Paul accomplished something more wonderful that he could have realized the day he won Onesimus to faith in Christ.
But the Goodspeed line has not found wide acceptance. For those who are unable to follow it, Knox’s reconstruction has more of fancy than of fact about it. Yet the preservation and canonization of this private letter must be explained. To Onesimus the letter was his charter of liberty. That Onesimus did become bishop of Ephesus is not improbable. If so, then, wherever and by whomsoever the Pauline corpus was first compiled and published, Onesimus could scarcely fail; to get to know about it, and would make sure that his Pauline letter found a place in the collection.
There are two things that look like the genuine article: a really good counterfeit and the genuine article itself. I still feel that these epistles have all the marks of the genuine article. At any rate, Ephesians goes beyond what may be derived from a mere extract of Paul's epistles. It is hard to explain how something that 'goes beyond' could be considered a 'cover letter.'
And yes, I, too, believe it is inspired!

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 Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 354 of 383 (695415)
04-05-2013 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by jaywill
02-15-2013 1:35 AM


Re: "Headed up in Christ" and "in Christ"
quote:
I see in this interesting word two possibilities I think:
1.) To head up all things AGAIN - this second time in Christ.
Or as you suggest -
2.) To head up all things in Christ AGAIN.
What do you think about this distinction?
I don't know if there is something in the Greek which stresses one over the other.
Christ is now "Head over all things to the church" and yet we do not see this applied to all things. I believe there was a time in the past before the rebellion of Satan when all things were headed up in Christ and the verses below show that there will be such a time in the future. There was a time when "the morning stars sang for joy.' Genesis 1:2 says, "But the earth became waste and emptiness..." So I think 'again' is consistent with the truth.
I am not sure if I understand your distinction between 'a second time' and 'again' since 'a second time' is again.
Eph 1:22-23 And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, 23 Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all.
Heb 2:8-9 You have subjected all things under His feet. For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him, 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything.
I Cor 15:24-28 Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until God buts all His enemies under His feet. 26 Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. 27 For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. 28 And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
I will do another post on the Greek.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2013 1:35 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 355 of 383 (695845)
04-09-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by purpledawn
03-31-2013 4:46 AM


Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
How do you account for statements like the following from Ephesians? Who is talking about what?
NIV Ephesians 3:13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
NIV Ephesians 6:21 Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord, will tell you everything, so that you also may know how I am and what I am doing. 22 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Jazzns, posted 04-12-2013 10:48 AM Richh has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 356 of 383 (696118)
04-12-2013 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Eli
03-11-2013 2:27 AM


Acknowledging vs. replying
How do you acknowledge vs. reply in this forum. That is not jumping out at me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Eli, posted 03-11-2013 2:27 AM Eli has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-12-2013 12:25 PM Richh has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 357 of 383 (696122)
04-12-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Richh
04-09-2013 4:58 PM


Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
There is a word for these kind of statements in forgeries and for the life of me I can't remember it. It is basically when the forger puts in little personal quirks, stories, or requests.
This is a technique that we often see in undisputed forgeries of the time. I can probably dig up some examples but I am not home at the moment.
An example from the Bible in a book where there is much more concensus that Paul did not write it, 2 Timothy, Paul asks for his cloak at the end of it. It makes you ask, "why would that be there if it wasn't really Paul asking for his cloak?" It gives the letter an air of legitimacy. But alas it was a well known technique of forgery at the time.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Richh, posted 04-09-2013 4:58 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Richh, posted 04-17-2013 12:24 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 365 by Richh, posted 04-25-2013 6:28 PM Jazzns has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 358 of 383 (696137)
04-12-2013 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Richh
04-12-2013 9:36 AM


Re: Acknowledging vs. replying
When you're logged in, at the bottom of a message that is a reply to one of your posts, you should be able to click on where it says:
"Richh has not responded".
When you click on that, it'll change it to "Richh has acknowledged this reply".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Richh, posted 04-12-2013 9:36 AM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Richh, posted 04-16-2013 12:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 359 of 383 (696498)
04-16-2013 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by New Cat's Eye
04-12-2013 12:25 PM


Re: Acknowledging vs. replying
I had to read you post about 3 times and then it finally sunk in. That was not obvious to me. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-12-2013 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2013 2:09 PM Richh has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 360 of 383 (696519)
04-16-2013 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Richh
04-16-2013 12:53 PM


Re: Acknowledging vs. replying
I had to read you post about 3 times and then it finally sunk in. That was not obvious to me. Thanks.
You're welcome, but you could have proved it by acknowledging the reply rather replying to it
So, acknowledge this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Richh, posted 04-16-2013 12:53 PM Richh has not replied

  
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