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Author Topic:   How can we regulate guns ... ?
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 916 of 955 (688777)
01-25-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 912 by Dr Adequate
01-24-2013 9:36 PM


Re: 2-d covariance math says....wow!!
i know...he's an Idiot.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2013 9:36 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 917 by Percy, posted 01-25-2013 11:08 AM xongsmith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22623
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 917 of 955 (688778)
01-25-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 916 by xongsmith
01-25-2013 11:04 AM


Re: 2-d covariance math says....wow!!
Uh, so is he going to pull his map down?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 918 of 955 (688784)
01-25-2013 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 917 by Percy
01-25-2013 11:08 AM


Re: 2-d covariance math says....wow!!
Percy asks:
Uh, so is he going to pull his map down?
It was on facebook, a world of hit & run.
So no...it's gone into the mists of Mark Zuckerburg's archives.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 919 of 955 (688799)
01-25-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 858 by RAZD
01-22-2013 12:49 PM


Re: 49% FANTASY
If ICANT characterizes people on the government dole as being slaves then he needs to look at who is causing that "slavery" -- it's not the people and it's not the government ...
Nice rebuttal, but scarecely worth the effort. ICANT's references to Nazi's, comparisons government assistance with slavery, and pretending to be amazed that black people don't identify with the 'party of Lincoln' don't rise to the level of needing rebuttals.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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 Message 858 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 12:49 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 920 of 955 (688826)
01-25-2013 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by RAZD
01-21-2013 7:20 PM


Re: depraved person
. like someone that will shoot first and ask questions later if someone enters their house.
... like George Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager.
Do you think the only reasonable time to shoot someone in self defense is when the victim is wielding a gun?
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 7:20 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 921 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2013 7:38 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(5)
Message 921 of 955 (688942)
01-26-2013 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 920 by foreveryoung
01-25-2013 8:11 PM


Re: depraved person
Do you think the only reasonable time to shoot someone in self defense is when the victim is wielding a gun?
I think that many people have been killed when they didn't need to be. Upthread there are a number of anecdotal case scenarios, and in a couple of them people shot without question. One stated he was disappointed that both people were not killed, being stopped and arrested was not enough?
I think that intent to harm would need to be demonstrated and other options weighed before I would consider shooting. Then I would aim to incapacitate\injure rather than kill.
I've been attacked, and walked away from it.
Some people use guns because they have them, not because they need them to resolve the issue.
The intent should be more on stopping than on killing.
And - for the record - anyone that relishes killing another human being - or that looks forward to it with relish, as ICANT's posts seem to indicate - is depraved in my book.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 920 by foreveryoung, posted 01-25-2013 8:11 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 922 by xongsmith, posted 01-28-2013 9:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 922 of 955 (689226)
01-28-2013 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 921 by RAZD
01-26-2013 7:38 PM


Re: depraved person
RAZD writes:
And - for the record - anyone that relishes killing another human being - or that looks forward to it with relish, as ICANT's posts seem to indicate - is depraved in my book.
Indeed - why do they even allow for a defense of innocent because the defendant is deemed insane? If the defendant really did kill someone, then the defendant is already well within the INSANE circle on your Venn diagram, for those of you who are keeping score at home.
But I love insane people. What would life be if every one was a grey milquetoast boring obedient specimen of our species? Just not the killing kind so much, okay?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 921 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2013 7:38 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 923 of 955 (689249)
01-29-2013 2:20 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by Panda, posted 01-29-2013 8:48 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 927 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2013 10:42 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 936 by ramoss, posted 01-30-2013 1:04 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 924 of 955 (689252)
01-29-2013 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 922 by xongsmith
01-28-2013 9:44 PM


Re: depraved person
deed - why do they even allow for a defense of innocent because the defendant is deemed insane?
That's not the standard for an insanity defense in the US. Simply being mentally aberrant does not produce a not guilty verdict.
Instead we require that the defendant have a mental condition that renders him either incapable of having any intent to commit a crime or incapable of controlling an impulse that any person might be subject to. Such a person does not even have the mens rea necessary to be guilty of a crime.
Further, since we cannot actually deter such a person, punishing them would simply be torture and/or revenge.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by xongsmith, posted 01-28-2013 9:44 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3801 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 925 of 955 (689265)
01-29-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 923 by foreveryoung
01-29-2013 2:20 AM


Which TV channel made that?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by foreveryoung, posted 01-29-2013 2:20 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 926 by Theodoric, posted 01-29-2013 8:58 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 926 of 955 (689266)
01-29-2013 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 925 by Panda
01-29-2013 8:48 AM


Which TV channel made that?
LOL
Like most of what the pro-gun crowd has to offer it is nothing more than propaganda. There is no sourcing for anything claimed. We are supposed to believe all of it because someone made a video.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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 Message 925 by Panda, posted 01-29-2013 8:48 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 927 of 955 (689278)
01-29-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 923 by foreveryoung
01-29-2013 2:20 AM


TOPIC PLEASE
The topic is how we can regulate guns, not what some nuts youtube video says.
What regulations do you think would be practical in terms of reducing deaths by guns?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by foreveryoung, posted 01-29-2013 2:20 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 928 of 955 (689279)
01-29-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by RAZD
01-20-2013 4:32 PM


Re: Summary of proposals so far ...
quote:
I have just gone through the entire thread to pull out what I consider to be proposals for how we can regulate guns. I have made no rating of how valid\useful the proposals are. If I missed anyone's proposal please let me know. Note these are often paraphrases or rewording to fit into proposal form rather than actual quotes. Nor have I listed the actual post. I've listed the author of the posts for each one except the first 8, which are all mine from the beginning of the thread. There is some overlap and I have not sorted them into categories.
  1. a federal regulation that all gun owners must be licensed by each state, with
    a. photo ID
    b. fingerprints
    c. DNA
    d. document of training for each gun
    e. record kept by FBI
    f. fees to cover costs
    g. license renewed each year
  2. a federal regulation that all guns must be registered in every state, with
    a. reference to gun owner's license
    b. fees to cover costs
  3. a federal registry (FBI) for background checks of people not allowed to have a gun, including
    a. previously convicted criminal gun users
    b. known irrational/delusional/unstable people
    c. doctors required to submit names
    --- people to be evaluated before adding to list
  4. a federal regulation that guns cannot change hands until
    a. each gun registration is updated
    b. the new and old owner's gun licenses are updated
    c. a background check on purchaser is run
  5. a federal regulation that
    a. no more than 1 operational gun may be carried at any time
    b. no more than 5 bullets for that gun may be carried at any time
  6. a federal regulation that states must require gun owners to carry insurance to cover
    a. liability and
    b. damages from either accidental or intentional use
    c. for each gun owned
  7. a federal regulation that all ammunition must have a tracking system so that the used ammunition can be tracked back
    a. to the registered owner
    b. to the store selling the ammo
  8. a federal regulation that both gun license and registration need to be provided in order to purchase ammunition
    ----
  9. An outright ban on the ownership of handguns and assault weapons. A recall of existing guns in those categories and strong Federal - not state - licensing of hunting rifles and shotguns (tangle)
  10. not just decriminalize drugs but nationalize all illicit drugs, give them away for free through neighborhood health clinics funded by redirection of all monies now wasted on the "War on Drugs" (jar)
  11. decriminalize assisted suicide so that there were better options than a gun - that would reduce US gun deaths by nearly 50% right away (jar)
  12. list\order weapons capable of killing based on their efficiency in achieving that end (kills per minute) ... from machine guns to pencils (yes a sharp pencil can kill) ... and if we then limited access to the top 50 killing machines, then we should logically see a reduction in the efficiency of killing -- meaning more people (vis-a-vis the Japanese schoolroom assault with a knife) would survive. (razd)
  13. identify other factors -- such as mental health care -- and take action in that direction as well. (razd)
  14. ALL states need to have the same set of gun laws (onifre)
  15. tackle the primary problem ... the Balkanism/tribalism that is developing in many inner cities for socio-economic and other related reasons (coyote)
  16. to prevent these random mass shootings, there should be enough information out there to begin profiling those most likely to engage in them. Certainly the FBI has a good profiling department and presumably has some good ideas of the characteristics and traits to be watching for (coyote)
  17. Control where guns are carried, similar to New York's laws where you are not allowed to carry a gun in public. (Taq)
  18. For those that think weapons are necessary to protect them from government intrustion then fine, keep your firearms at home and have them at the ready in case we need to topple some fantasized tyrranical US government. (Taq)
  19. If you are caught with a handgun/AR in public, with an unregistered handgun/AR, or privately selling a handgun/AR then you serve a one year sentence. We can make exceptions for gaming firearms just as other countries do. (Taq)
  20. If you want to use military grade arms, then join the National Guard and get the training, discipline, and psychological evaluations that ensure that you are of sound mind and know how to properly use the equipment. (razd)
  21. regulate the number of guns an individual can own, the types of guns an individual can own, the amount of ammunition an individual can own, the manner in which guns and ammunition are stored, require training and insurance, require psychological evaluations. (razd)
  22. a town could have a "gun club militia organization" with regulations and controls similar to the National Guard on the use of weapons, training,etc., and that such an organization could provide a safer, better controlled access to weapons of military grade than private homes. (razd)
  23. the gun show loop hole should be 'closed' and that 'closure' should extend to all private sales of guns (panda)
  24. straw purchasing guns should be made universally illegal, as has already been done is several states.(panda)
  25. Illinois has the FOID card: the requirements are not having been convicted of a felony, and not having been incarcerated in a mental institution. Its maintained by the State Police. (catholic scientist)
  26. If it was on a national level, then a person would not be able to simply step over the state line and by-pass the FOID. (xongsmith\panda)
  27. if you don't have state border guards, then there's nothing stopping people bringing in guns from out of state. Gun legislation needs to be national else it is too easy for people to by-pass. (panda)
  28. Make it a crime if your gun is used in a crime even if it wasn't you using it (even if its stolen). (catholic scientist)
  29. remove the depraved human and the problem will be solved. (icant)
  30. instead of removing the guns the same sort of restrictions that are applied in New York are applied across the board (straggler)
  31. rapid fire types guns and guns with interchangeable large clips of ammunition, along with the ammunition, can be provided by congress to the militias -- per the constitution -- along with the training and discipline in their use (razd)
  32. if you want to be part of a well regulated militia you can join the National Guard. State police and town police perform similar functions, and you can join them if you are interested in preserving law, order and peace in the towns and states. (razd)
  33. A comprehensive program to reduce gun deaths should have to look at ways to reduce crime in general, so that means that social programs also need to be considered. (razd)
  34. failure to disclose your guns results in a criminal record that now prevents you from lawfully owning a gun, and whether there are significant fines for failure to disclose, and whether confiscation of unregistered guns was included. (razd)
  35. Whatever the answers to the social issues only an absolute lunatic would look at such a situation and conclude that what the situation needs is a citizenry armed with guns. (straggler)
  36. we should only allow people to own black powder muzzle loading ball muskets since those are the arms that the founders were talking about. (taq)
  37. gun regulations would limit the damage such a psycho could do: If we limit magazines to 9 rounds instead of 30 then the shooter will have to stop shooting after 9 rounds instead of 30, (taq)
  38. If we want to stop gun violence then it makes much more sense to regulate gun sales, register guns so owners are held responsible, and limit the right to carry in public. (taq)
  39. things DC has done, post DC v. Heller would be possible candidates: implemented a prohibition on assault weapons, and a prohibition on large capacity feeding devices. DC also uses zoning laws to deny establishment of gun shops in the district. Guns are registered. (nonukes)
  40. one type of weapon is banned (or severely restricted), so this ban can be applied to other weapons that are virtually the same, especially in the ability to fire a large number of bullets in a small amount of time. (razd)
  41. just ban ammo clips and magazines altogether. (razd)
  42. 1 - Universal background checks. 2 - Mandatory Gun Registration. 3 - Mandatory Gun Safe Registration (tempe 12ft chicken
  43. check-ins with posted guards at the main entrance(s) to schools (similar to what exists in most government buildings) would be a nice addition. (Jon)
  44. drug testing, Include prescription drugs related to mental health (razd)
  45. legislation should be about who qualifies to carry a gun. (faith)
  46. Strict standards for qualification for gun possession are good too, training sessions being mandatory perhaps. Drug testing might not be necessary but doctors could supply information about whether an applicant for a gun is on psychiatric drugs. (faith)
  47. Universal background checks for every time a gun changes hands, otherwise it will be as ineffective as current background checks. (razd)
  48. Straw purchases should be illegal for used guns as well as new guns. Registration of the gun owner with the gun ensures this. (razd)
  49. If you have no problem with banning of certain kinds of weapons, then the issue is what constitutes weapons that should be banned ... such as assault type weapons that can load lots of ammunition, fire it at a fast rate, are are easy to reload with interchangeable clips of ammunition. (razd)
  50. part of the testing for ability to safely carry a weapon should be a determination of how much a persons beliefs are founded in reality - irrational beliefs, such as in government conspiracies, should indicate unstable mentality. (razd)
  51. Pass a law that there should be at least one armed person on school premises for every couple hundred children or something like that... don't mind if you want to require more training. Nothing wrong with training, the more the better. (faith)
  52. pass universal background checks on all gun sales, mental health restrictions, and set up a national database to track gun sales. (razd)
  53. define depraved person: someone who wants a type of gun that is capable of killing a lot of people in a short period of time and can be reloaded quickly with clips of ammunition, a type of gun that serves no rational civilian purpose. (razd)
Additional notes:
The Constitution guarantees the "right to bear arms." It does not say what those arms are, or limit Congress from making laws limiting the types of arms that can be owned (Rahvin)
It would be perfectly fitting within the Constitution to ban all guns and limit the arms that can be borne to escrima sticks. The government would simply need to assert a State interest in limiting the destructive power of various and sundry weapons to preserve the public safety - it's all just a matter of determining where that line should be drawn, not whether any line can be drawn. (Rahvin)
And of course, in the end, our laws and rights are not simply inherent, written in stone by some imagined deity. It's all just words on paper, held in place by the force of communal agreement that it is so. We have the freedom of speech because we all agree that we have the freedom of speech. The Constitution can be altered, limited, or even replaced given sufficient public and political support for doing so. We've been re-interpreting and even re-writing it for the past 200+ years. (Rahvin)
Nor, apparently, does the Constitution (as currently amended) prevent states from enacting legislation regarding what kind of ammunition, and ammunition delivery systems, are allowed in the state.
Discussion can now focus on the number proposal and replies made to that. For instance:
Proposal #51 for "one armed person on school premises for every couple hundred children"
  • would likely produce little actual effect, when the presence of professionally highly trained secret service and DC police did nothing to prevent, stop or reduce the Reagan shooting incident (see Message 771),
  • did not work at Columbine, Virginia Tech or Fort Hood, where armed guards failed to prevent, stop or reduce those shooting incidents,
  • would go a long way to greatly increasing ongoing costs of schools with little benefit,
  • would begin to turn schools into armed police state camps,
  • others have argued that school shootings are rare and thus do not justify much increase in cost, so
  • one-time costs to increase security in the infrastructure of schools would likely be more effective, and,
  • does nothing to address the social and mental health issues that lie behind such events.
I have not included reference to proposals from Obama at this point, nor to the new regulations in New York (other than by reference in 17 & 30).
Let me know of any further proposals you may have.
Still looking for any more new proposals.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2013 4:32 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 929 of 955 (689282)
01-29-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by RAZD
01-20-2013 10:51 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Consolidated proposals #1
quote:
Proposal #1 was (Message 801):
1. a federal regulation that all gun owners must be licensed by each state, with
a. photo ID
b. fingerprints
c. DNA
d. document of training for each gun
e. record kept by FBI
f. fees to cover costs
g. license renewed each year
There was some semantic quibbling over the term "licensed", so we can use "registered" instead. For argument sake let me note that I am a registered medical marijuana user (rather than licensed), and that this registration gives me certain legal rights that don't apply to non-registered users.
As noted in proposal #25, the state of Illinois currently has an Firearm Owner Identification (FOID) card: the requirements are not having been convicted of a felony, and not having been incarcerated in a mental institution -- ie - a background check.
The FOID card is currently required for any resident of Illinois to possess or purchase firearms.
Thus it would seem to be a practical thing to expand this program to other states. This is a photo ID card, and their cost for this registration is $10, which is cheaper than my cost to register as a pot user.
There was some reluctance regarding DNA and fingerprinting (altho imho they likely already have it) so we can drop those for now.
Training and strict standards for gun ownership shows up in proposal #46, and thus these three proposals can be combined into one revised proposal:
A federal regulation that all states have FOID programs to register gun owners in each state, with
  1. photo ID card
  2. document of training and competency for each gun
  3. record kept by FBI
  4. fees to cover costs
  5. license renewed each year
This registration could also be used to regulate whether a person can get a hunting license, as there is no "right to hunt" in the Constitution.
It could also be used for "instant background checks" by calling the national registry or going on-line and using the FOID registration number to see that the background check is up to date.
See replies to Message 809 for current discussion.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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 Message 809 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2013 10:51 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 930 of 955 (689283)
01-29-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by RAZD
01-22-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #2: Gun Registration
Consolidated proposal #2
quote:
Okay, so comments on proposal #1 (universal FOIDs) were mostly constructive and positive.
Let's move on to Proposal #2 (Message 801)::
2. a federal regulation that all guns must be registered in every state, with
a. reference to gun owner's license
b. fees to cover costs
As before we can look at combining this with other proposals:
19. If you are caught with a handgun/AR in public, with an unregistered handgun/AR, or privately selling a handgun/AR then you serve a one year sentence. We can make exceptions for gaming firearms just as other countries do. (Taq)
Would address the penalties for not registering the weapons.
21. regulate the number of guns an individual can own, the types of guns an individual can own, the amount of ammunition an individual can own, the manner in which guns and ammunition are stored, require training and insurance, require psychological evaluations. (razd)
This would be similar to Switzerland.
34. failure to disclose your guns results in a criminal record that now prevents you from lawfully owning a gun, and whether there are significant fines for failure to disclose, and whether confiscation of unregistered guns was included. (razd)
Also speaks to penalties for not registering.
38. ... register guns so owners are held responsible ... (taq)
If used in a crime, the last registered gun owner is responsible for the gun being available.
42. ... Mandatory Gun Registration. ... (tempe 12ft chicken
48. Straw purchases should be illegal for used guns as well as new guns. Registration of the gun owner with the gun ensures this. (razd)
Close the straw purchase loophole.
There was discussion on the "document of training and competency for each gun" in proposal #1 (FOID card) so we could move it to this one as it makes more sense to be tied to purchasing of a gun.
Thus we would have:
A federal regulation that all guns must be registered each state with:
  1. reference to owner's FOID card
  2. non-registered guns may be confiscated if used in a crime
  3. anyone carrying a non-registered may face time in prison and criminal record
  4. straw purchases banned
  5. document of training and competency for gun being purchased
  6. fees to cover costs
Note that the "document of training and competency" could be issued by gun dealers if they have a small shooting range (many do) where this could be done.
It also seems to me that such registration could include the location where the gun is intended to be kept (home, car, person, cottage, work, etc).
See Message 864 for earlier replies.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 2:52 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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