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Author Topic:   How can we regulate guns ... ?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 871 of 955 (688484)
01-22-2013 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by ICANT
01-22-2013 7:45 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
But that job has already been assigned by the ATF to licensed dealers.
You are forgetting about the gun show loophole where there are no background checks or tracking. A criminal can literally walk into a gun show with a pocket full of cash and walk out with an AR15 and no one would be the wiser.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2013 7:45 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 872 by Jon, posted 01-22-2013 8:16 PM Taq has replied
 Message 876 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2013 11:41 PM Taq has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 872 of 955 (688485)
01-22-2013 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Taq
01-22-2013 7:51 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
You are forgetting about the gun show loophole where there are no background checks or tracking. A criminal can literally walk into a gun show with a pocket full of cash and walk out with an AR15 and no one would be the wiser.
But how serious of a problem is this? What percentage of guns used in crimes are actually obtained at gun shows?
And what percentage of criminals who obtained their guns at a gun show had a background that would have disqualified them?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 7:51 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 8:23 PM Jon has replied
 Message 879 by ICANT, posted 01-23-2013 12:43 PM Jon has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 873 of 955 (688487)
01-22-2013 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by Jon
01-22-2013 8:16 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
But how serious of a problem is this? What percentage of guns used in crimes are actually obtained at gun shows?
And what percentage of criminals who obtained their guns at a gun show had a background that would have disqualified them?
I would be as interested in those numbers as you are.
What I do know is that it makes no sense to have such a wide open loophole if we are using background checks to keep these weapons out of the hands of criminals. It would make a lot more sense to tie a serial number for a gun to the person who buys it, and if that gun is used in a crime then the person that is registered to that gun can be held accountable for that crime. If that person wants to sell their guns to a friend or just someone off the street then fine, but it needs to go through a licensed dealer for a background check and transfer of title for the gun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by Jon, posted 01-22-2013 8:16 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by Jon, posted 01-22-2013 8:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 874 of 955 (688488)
01-22-2013 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by RAZD
01-22-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #2: Gun Registration
A federal regulation that all guns must be registered each state with:
  1. reference to owner's FOID card
  2. non-registered guns may be confiscated if used in a crime
  3. anyone carrying a non-registered may face time in prison and criminal record
  4. straw purchases banned
  5. document of training and competency for gun being purchased
  6. fees to cover costs
You are jumping ahead; we haven't even covered the first set of policies in sufficient detail.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 875 of 955 (688489)
01-22-2013 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by Taq
01-22-2013 8:23 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
But how serious of a problem is this? What percentage of guns used in crimes are actually obtained at gun shows?
And what percentage of criminals who obtained their guns at a gun show had a background that would have disqualified them?
I would be as interested in those numbers as you are.
In other words: you don't know what they are.
It would make a lot more sense to tie a serial number for a gun to the person who buys it, and if that gun is used in a crime then the person that is registered to that gun can be held accountable for that crime.
Why? What would this accomplish?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 8:23 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 1:42 PM Jon has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 876 of 955 (688498)
01-22-2013 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Taq
01-22-2013 7:51 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
You are forgetting about the gun show loophole where there are no background checks or tracking. A criminal can literally walk into a gun show with a pocket full of cash and walk out with an AR15 and no one would be the wiser.
Where can I find one of those shows?
Everyone I have ever been too I had to fill out the 4473 form which requires a background check. Before I could take posession of a weapon.
Now you might be able to find some individual with an AR15 that has had so many rounds shot through it that it is wore out offering it for sale. But who would buy a piece of junk.
I buy new or I don't buy. To do that you have to go to a dealer..
You can't even buy one online as they can only ship to a dealer and you have to go pick it up. Before you can do that the paperwork has to be done including the background check. That is the way it works in my state.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Taq, posted 01-22-2013 7:51 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by xongsmith, posted 01-23-2013 10:37 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 878 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2013 11:06 AM ICANT has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 877 of 955 (688521)
01-23-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by ICANT
01-22-2013 11:41 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
ICANT writes:
That is the way it works in my state.
But apparently it's not the way it works in every state. We already know you can't get the loophole in Florida where you are without going underground into the criminal world.
From wikipedia:
In 33 states, private gun owners are not restricted from selling guns at gun shows. Buyers who purchase guns from individuals are not required to submit to the federal background checks in place for licensed dealers. Critics say that firearms can be obtained illegally as a result, calling it the gun show loophole. Proponents of unregulated gun show sales say that there is no loophole; gun owners are simply selling or trading guns at the shows as they would do at their residence.
Furthermore,
A total of 11 states require background checks for at least some gun purchases at gun shows. Seven of those states require background checks for all gun purchases, while four states require background checks for only handgun purchases.
The seven states requiring background checks for all purchases include:
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
The four states requiring background checks for only handgun purchases include:
Hawaii
Maryland
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
In Florida, private firearms purchases are subject to background checks in some jurisdictions but not across the entire state. There are no laws regulating private firearms sales at gun shows in the remaining 33 states.
NOTE THE HORRIBLE MATHEMATICS!!!!
7 + 4 + 1 = 12 and 50-12 = 38, not 33. And what about DC? But even still, it is evident that background checks are not required for many states at gun shows where a private exchange is made.
So, ICANT, even in your own state there seem to be places where you don't need to get a background check.
Personally I'm astonished that the People's Republic Of Taxachusetts is not listed in the first group!! Note that Newtown is in that first group.
According to a report released by Bloomberg’s office, 22 of 33 private sellers sold guns to undercover investigators who informed them that they probably could not pass a background check, while 16 of 17 licensed sellers allowed straw purchases by the undercover investigators, a process through which a person prohibited from purchasing a firearm recruits someone to purchase the gun for them.
This is like minors getting someone to buy alcohol or cigarettes for them. This is why the owner who bought it needs to be responsible for what happens to the weapon - this makes it possible to trace it back to him (or her). Then catching a stooge who bought your guns for you will eliminate the stooge or make him rat you out in exchange for a lesser charge.
However:
The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has estimated that 5,000 gun shows are held annually in the United States, attracting tens of thousands of attendees and resulting in the transfer of thousands of firearms.
While, in and of itself, this can be alarming, the gangs in downtown Chicago and elsewhere in this country's urban ghettos must be using a different source. Thousands of transfers is so way less than the millions needed by criminals.
Sure - let's stop the gun show loophole, but there's a much bigger problem in the cities.
Edited by xongsmith, : sentencing

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2013 11:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 878 of 955 (688524)
01-23-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by ICANT
01-22-2013 11:41 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Where can I find one of those shows?
Everyone I have ever been too I had to fill out the 4473 form which requires a background check. Before I could take posession of a weapon.
It's been pointed out to you several times that 33 states don't require such checks. It's even been pointed out to you that the checks are only required in some Florida counties.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2013 11:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by ICANT, posted 01-23-2013 1:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 879 of 955 (688534)
01-23-2013 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by Jon
01-22-2013 8:16 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Hi Jon,
Jon writes:
And what percentage of criminals who obtained their guns at a gun show had a background that would have disqualified them?
I found these numbers Here
quote:
However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.
The illegal market is where someone in certain types of places in large cities can mention they are in the market for such and such a weapon. While remaining in that place for a while someone will approach and ask questions about said item. If they are satisfied that you are not undercover they may or may not offer the weapon you have mentioned you would like to obtain. Transactions can take place in less than 15 minutes.
Why would a seasoned criminal go to a gun show, or break into someone's house looking for a gun? Although they can find some of the criminals who deal in illegal weapons in the parking lots at gun shows and even some inside walking around with a weapon for sale. They also run a risk of the person being someone undercover.
Now idiots that have a depraved mind and are planning a mass murder of a lot of people may go through the regular chanels and if they are not qualified to purchase a weapon they will involve someone who does qualify to purchase a weapon for them.
In other words if they want a weapon they will get one.
If all weapons were confiscated in the US from law abiding citizens the criminals, military and police would be the only ones with weapons.
The criminals would never turn in their guns for any reason.
Because of that and the threat of government tyranny there are millions of law abiding citizens who will never turn in their weapons.
Here is a news story, in October 1997.
quote:
RALEIGH Raids across the country have turned up stolen military weapons and explosives. FBI agents have arrested six Marines from Camp Lejeune and seven other people from North Carolina.
FBI and ATF agents say the arrests took place in all three judicial districts of North Carolina, including at least one man in our area identified as Harold Gustav Coach of Raeford North Carolina. Federal agents also raided the Massachusetts home of a Marine recently transferred from Camp Lejeune.
The FBI, ATF and Naval Criminal Investigators have charged the Marines and civilians with trafficking in stolen weapons.
"You have firearms and ammunition such as an M79 grenade launcher," explains ATF agent, Mark Logan, "and the Chinese manufactured semi-automatic version of the AK-47 converted to a fully-automatic machine gun."
Some North Carolina military installations lead the nation in reports of lost and stolen weapons. Last year WRAL reported a computer analysis of five years worth of military records showed 37 instances of weapons lost or stolen at Fort Bragg, compared with 28 at Camp Pendleton, 25 at Camp Lejeune, 25 at Fort Hood and 23 at Fort Campbell.
Weapons stolen in California July 2011.
quote:
FORT IRWIN, Calif. — More than two dozen assault rifles have been stolen from a Southern California military base, and investigators sought the public's help as they looked to arrest suspects and recover the weapons, federal officials said Friday.
Twenty-six AK-74 assault rifles and one Dragunov sniper rifle were stolen from a supply warehouse at Fort Irwin in San Bernardino County on July 15, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives says in a statement.
Some arrests have been made and one rifle has been recovered, but the agency is offering a reward of up to $10,000 for information leading to further arrests, the statement said.
Read more: 27 Rifles Stolen from California Military Base | Fox News
As you can see weapons will be available regardless of what controls are in effect.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by Jon, posted 01-22-2013 8:16 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 880 of 955 (688536)
01-23-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by Straggler
01-19-2013 11:30 AM


What is being said is that situations where guns are genuinely needed are very few and far between.
I don't see need as being relavant. The 2nd Amendment does not grant us the right to arms, it affirms it as a natural right and commands to not infringe it.
The right to arms, and self-defense, was even in the English Bill of Rights (from wiki: "no royal interference in the freedom of the people to have arms for their own defence as suitable to their class and as allowed by law"), which was influencial to the US BoR. These were identifying Natural Rights of the people as opposed to the king having the Divine Right to grant legal rights to the people.
Natural rights simply are not determined to be allowed on the basis of need.
What is silly and bonkers is your support for people not having the natural right to self defence by way of being armed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by Straggler, posted 01-19-2013 11:30 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 913 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2013 8:57 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 881 of 955 (688538)
01-23-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by NoNukes
01-23-2013 11:06 AM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
It's been pointed out to you several times that 33 states don't require such checks. It's even been pointed out to you that the checks are only required in some Florida counties.
I can not find a licensed dealer in the state of Florida that will sell and transfer a gun to my posession without me filling out ATF form 4473 and them running a background check.
Every pawn shop I have asked is the same.
So maybe you know something I don't know.
The licensed gun dealers are licensed by the ATF and if they break the ATF's rules they face stiff fines and lose their license.
So what idiot who is a licensed gun dealer would put his livelihood on the line by not meeting the ATF's requirements by selling a gun to an ATF agent at a gun show.
Now when it comes to individuals selling their own guns they don't have to have gun shows to sell their guns. A add in the local paper will do. But word of mouth is the best advertisement.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2013 11:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2013 10:12 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 882 of 955 (688542)
01-23-2013 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by xongsmith
01-23-2013 10:37 AM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Hi xong,
xongsmith writes:
While, in and of itself, this can be alarming, the gangs in downtown Chicago and elsewhere in this country's urban ghettos must be using a different source. Thousands of transfers is so way less than the millions needed by criminals.
Sure - let's stop the gun show loophole, but there's a much bigger problem in the cities.
The ATF licenses gun dealers. The ATF makes the rules for how those businesses conduct business. The ATF requires that all licensed gun dealers fill out a form 4473 preform a background check and enter that information on the form 4473. There are stiff penalities for not complying with the regulations. Stiff fines and even loss of license.
All the ATF has to do is enforce the rules they have on the books.
It doesn't matter whether the State or a county requires the dealer to obey the rules or not. They don't issue the dealer license nor can they revoke it.
So why do we have to have new rules?
I have posted where you can find the ATF form 4473 up thread if you are interested in the information required by the ATF for the dealer to collect from the buyer and NICS, before transfering a gun to the buyer.
If the present rules can't or won't be enforced, what makes you think that new rules will change anything?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by xongsmith, posted 01-23-2013 10:37 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 883 of 955 (688544)
01-23-2013 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by Jon
01-22-2013 8:28 PM


Re: Problem Solving at its Best -- proposal #1: FOIDs
Why? What would this accomplish?
It would be a deterrent for giving guns to criminals. It would also make people think about locking up their guns at home to keep others from grabbing them.
If we have some way of tracing guns used in crimes back to the last registered owner, even if that is a wholesaler, then we can start to crack down on the pipelines that allow criminals to acquire guns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by Jon, posted 01-22-2013 8:28 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by Jon, posted 01-23-2013 5:08 PM Taq has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 884 of 955 (688557)
01-23-2013 2:18 PM


2-d covariance math says....wow!!
Hate to post this picture I found on facebook from my acquaintance, Lew Flagg, but it does need some answers.
I would only note that in the areas of high gun death it's no wonder the people living there want to stop it. If it doesn't happen in your backyard, well, that's how life goes. Out of sight, out of mind, so to speak.
This picture is rather damning for the knee-jerk liberals (I wonder how the FBI got their stats for this):
Should note here that "more legally owned guns = less crime" is not at all supported. But....it looks bad.
Edited by xongsmith, : code

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3793 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 885 of 955 (688560)
01-23-2013 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by xongsmith
01-23-2013 2:18 PM


Re: 2-d covariance math says....wow!!
From that image, did Romney win the election?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
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