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Member (Idle past 2951 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Who hurts the US Healthcare system worse? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Taq writes: In the end, it is just a slightly different way to buy the same private health insurance that Americans have been buying for decades. ... The only catastrophe in this whole thing is that they did not create socialized, single payer healthcare like you and our other good neighbors to the North have. I see.I knew the act went though "many revisions" as it made it's way through congress, and I got the impression it had been watered-down somewhat. Here's hoping that the direction continues for the first step, then, and not just get overturned in the next few years.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Well, no... the argument is that they would doctor elsewhere. The united states isn't the only country with medical facilities.
Where else can they easily go? Every other western democracy has some sort of socialized medicine. They idea that any percentage of american doctors are going to emigrate to some sort of doctor utopia is ludicrous. There is no other place in the world they can work as little as they do and make as much as they do than they United States.
What conclusions do you think I jumped to? If you read my post, it was asking questions... not making statements.
Well then you should probably find new ways to state your questions.
From what I've heard, new healthcare laws have raised their costs, and lowered their coverage.
I've heard that it's a horrible flop, causing nothing but issues and it's ruining everyone's shit. Now I just sort of think it was the same old tired political story to push ahead some other agenda and screw all the people who get affected
Is there any good news about it at all? Is it a complete catastrophe? I heard the plan was somewhat based on being supported by the younger generation signing up.But... that younger generation has said "fuck you" because it's a horrible plan that costs way too much money. So, without the younger generation bearing their load of the costs... the whole thing is in jeopardy anyway? Sure sounds like you had jumped to a number of conclusions. You jumped to the conclusion that it was a "complete" catastrophe, when it is not a catastrophe at all. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Theodoric writes: Where else can they easily go? Every other western democracy has some sort of socialized medicine. They idea that any percentage of american doctors are going to emigrate to some sort of doctor utopia is ludicrous. There is no other place in the world they can work as little as they do and make as much as they do than they United States. I agree that it's not a good argument. But the fact remains that it's possible for doctors to leave the US and be a doctor in another country.The part about it being "easy" would be weighed against the level of personal difficulty the doctor would be having in the US with the new laws... which is the part I was asking about. Thanks to your new information, I'm able to understand that this is not a good argument. Well then you should probably find new ways to state your questions. I accept your viewpoint. But, really, I think it's your reading comprehension.I don't think I actually came across as jumping to conclusions, I think I came across more as hearing a bunch of things and looking for more information. If you seriously think otherwise, you may want to consider your own bias. It is very difficult to judge one's own writing so I could easily be wrong. But for the life of me I can't see the position you're claiming I took.
Sure sounds like you had jumped to a number of conclusions. You jumped to the conclusion that it was a "complete" catastrophe, when it is not a catastrophe at all. Um... you even quoted it:
quote: The "complete catastrophe" part is a question. You can tell because of the question mark after the sentence.All the questions at the beginning and end of this show that I'm looking for more information, not jumping to any conclusions. I fully admit that I only heard one side of the story when I posted.It shouldn't surprise you that my questions are based off the information I had... from the one side. It may not be entirely your fault, text can be difficult to ascertain mood from.Perhaps you should try reading things while asking yourself "is it possible for this to be taken another way?" If you do that, you can avoid getting stuck in your first impression of things and approach the matter a little more open minded.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But the fact remains that it's possible for doctors to leave the US and be a doctor in another country. The part about it being "easy" would be weighed against the level of personal difficulty the doctor would be having in the US with the new laws... which is the part I was asking about. To this and the comment about "brain drain" (which involves other professions as well as medicine) I ask: Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money? Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor. Curiously I think that would be an improvement. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
RAZD writes: Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money? Point well taken.
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor. Curiously I think that would be an improvement. Yes, but it seems to be a popular human condition to seek rewards. In the US, the doctors are basically rewarded (get the most money) by caring for the rich who can afford to pay a lot of money? I think that's the easiest to be corrupted. In Canada, the doctors are basically rewarded with "patients seen." Which is a bit better, but is still corrupted quite a bit.For a small example: Some doctors will call you into their office, where you have to take a day off work and still wait close to an hour after the appointment time that they made... for them to tell you that they received your test results and everything looks pretty good so they're not going to prescribe anything at this time and we'll see if anything else develops in the future. Something they could easily tell you over the phone in about 8 seconds. But, when you go in... they get to sign you off on some sheet as "a patient seen that day." And then they get paid a bit more... I think in Europe there are some systems where the rewards are based on improving the health of patients?For example: Someone comes in addicted to smoking and the doctor helps them quit... then the doctor gets a bit of a bonus? Not sure, I don't know much about European healthcare... but I think I heard something like that. That sounds like a pretty decent system.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money? Why does that have to be an either/or? Why not both?
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor. That don't necessarily make them good doctors. I know my doctor personally, outside of him being my doctor. He's really smart and great at what he does. But he is also in high demand (he' not currently taking new patients). Too, he ain't cheap. But I'm willing to pay more for a great doctor that I know personally. On the one hand, I can afford it. On the other, I don't bother him with every belly-ache I get and reserve his expertise for when its truly needed.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I accept your viewpoint. But, really, I think it's your reading comprehension. I don't think I actually came across as jumping to conclusions, I think I came across more as hearing a bunch of things and looking for more information. If you seriously think otherwise, you may want to consider your own bias. It is very difficult to judge one's own writing so I could easily be wrong. But for the life of me I can't see the position you're claiming I took. FWIW, I got what you were saying and agree that the problem lies with Theo. But I, too, have had to explain to him what a question mark is/means.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
FWIW, I got what you were saying and agree that the problem lies with Theo. But I, too, have had to explain to him what a question mark is/means. Again you can not resist any chance to get in a personal attack. There was absolutely no reason for you to add this snide little attack. How about staying out of conversations if all you are doing is making a personal attack. This is crazy. Every time anyone makes any comment that is remotely critical of me you have to add your two cents and pile on about how you think I am a problem. Grow up. Edited by Theodoric, : SubtitleFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Again you can not resist any chance to get in a personal attack. False. You offer plenty of chances on a daily basis and I resist most of them.
There was absolutely no reason for you to add this snide little attack. Wrong again. The reason was to explain to Stile that he was correct in his assessment. Can you ever get anything right?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes, but it seems to be a popular human condition to seek rewards. Rewards aren't necessarily monetary. Doctors without Borders.
I think in Europe there are some systems where the rewards are based on improving the health of patients? For example: Someone comes in addicted to smoking and the doctor helps them quit... then the doctor gets a bit of a bonus? Not sure, I don't know much about European healthcare... but I think I heard something like that. That sounds like a pretty decent system. Preventative medicine is way cheaper than treating ailments. Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
That don't necessarily make them good doctors. Charging a lot doesn't make them better either. Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
That don't necessarily make them good doctors.
Charging a lot doesn't make them better either. No shit, but the better you are, the more people are going to be willing to pay you. When you're so good that people are competing to get you, then you may even get offers for higher pay.
quote: And you also risk losing great doctors, which would not be an improvement...
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7
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And you also risk losing great doctors But then again there is no way to show this is true. It may seem intuitive to you, but it is not necessarily true. IF doctors pay is reduced 10% what else are they going to do, become drug reps? Also, most excess profits in the medical industry do not go to the doctors in the first place. As a matter of fact insurance companies and corporate medical companies are pressing down doctor compensation to some extent already. One travesty of our system is that primary care physicians are the least compensated. There are certain specialties that make an obscene amount of money. In my experience the doctors on the lower end of the pay scale seem to get the most reward from their jobs. CS, If you are going to respond please be civil. If you are going to just make personal attacks, I don't want to hear them.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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UK: Salaried GPs who are part of a CCG earn between 54,319 to 81,969
USA: The general practitioner in the United States receives an average yearly salary ranging from between $168,550 to $173,175 per year. So in US, the pay is twice that of Britain. The language is the same, and the culture is not drastically different. Why does Britain have any doctors?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Why does Britain have any doctors? Why wouldn't they?
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