Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who hurts the US Healthcare system worse?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 241 of 316 (716698)
01-20-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Taq
01-17-2014 5:23 PM


Re: Obamacare - Good or Bad or still waiting to see?
Taq writes:
In the end, it is just a slightly different way to buy the same private health insurance that Americans have been buying for decades. ...
The only catastrophe in this whole thing is that they did not create socialized, single payer healthcare like you and our other good neighbors to the North have.
I see.
I knew the act went though "many revisions" as it made it's way through congress, and I got the impression it had been watered-down somewhat.
Here's hoping that the direction continues for the first step, then, and not just get overturned in the next few years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Taq, posted 01-17-2014 5:23 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 242 of 316 (716708)
01-20-2014 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Stile
01-20-2014 11:49 AM


Re: Obamacare - Good or Bad or still waiting to see?
Well, no... the argument is that they would doctor elsewhere. The united states isn't the only country with medical facilities.
Where else can they easily go? Every other western democracy has some sort of socialized medicine. They idea that any percentage of american doctors are going to emigrate to some sort of doctor utopia is ludicrous. There is no other place in the world they can work as little as they do and make as much as they do than they United States.
What conclusions do you think I jumped to? If you read my post, it was asking questions... not making statements.
Well then you should probably find new ways to state your questions.
From what I've heard, new healthcare laws have raised their costs, and lowered their coverage.
I've heard that it's a horrible flop, causing nothing but issues and it's ruining everyone's shit.
Now I just sort of think it was the same old tired political story to push ahead some other agenda and screw all the people who get affected
Is there any good news about it at all?
Is it a complete catastrophe?
I heard the plan was somewhat based on being supported by the younger generation signing up.
But... that younger generation has said "fuck you" because it's a horrible plan that costs way too much money.
So, without the younger generation bearing their load of the costs... the whole thing is in jeopardy anyway?
Sure sounds like you had jumped to a number of conclusions. You jumped to the conclusion that it was a "complete" catastrophe, when it is not a catastrophe at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Stile, posted 01-20-2014 11:49 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Stile, posted 01-20-2014 3:14 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 243 of 316 (716713)
01-20-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Theodoric
01-20-2014 2:52 PM


How to Debate on a Forum
Theodoric writes:
Where else can they easily go? Every other western democracy has some sort of socialized medicine. They idea that any percentage of american doctors are going to emigrate to some sort of doctor utopia is ludicrous. There is no other place in the world they can work as little as they do and make as much as they do than they United States.
I agree that it's not a good argument.
But the fact remains that it's possible for doctors to leave the US and be a doctor in another country.
The part about it being "easy" would be weighed against the level of personal difficulty the doctor would be having in the US with the new laws... which is the part I was asking about. Thanks to your new information, I'm able to understand that this is not a good argument.
Well then you should probably find new ways to state your questions.
I accept your viewpoint. But, really, I think it's your reading comprehension.
I don't think I actually came across as jumping to conclusions, I think I came across more as hearing a bunch of things and looking for more information. If you seriously think otherwise, you may want to consider your own bias.
It is very difficult to judge one's own writing so I could easily be wrong. But for the life of me I can't see the position you're claiming I took.
Sure sounds like you had jumped to a number of conclusions. You jumped to the conclusion that it was a "complete" catastrophe, when it is not a catastrophe at all.
Um... you even quoted it:
quote:
Is there any good news about it at all?
Is it a complete catastrophe?
I heard the plan was somewhat based on being supported by the younger generation signing up.
But... that younger generation has said "fuck you" because it's a horrible plan that costs way too much money.
So, without the younger generation bearing their load of the costs... the whole thing is in jeopardy anyway?
The "complete catastrophe" part is a question. You can tell because of the question mark after the sentence.
All the questions at the beginning and end of this show that I'm looking for more information, not jumping to any conclusions.
I fully admit that I only heard one side of the story when I posted.
It shouldn't surprise you that my questions are based off the information I had... from the one side.
It may not be entirely your fault, text can be difficult to ascertain mood from.
Perhaps you should try reading things while asking yourself "is it possible for this to be taken another way?"
If you do that, you can avoid getting stuck in your first impression of things and approach the matter a little more open minded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Theodoric, posted 01-20-2014 2:52 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2014 6:11 PM Stile has replied
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 10:48 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 244 of 316 (716736)
01-20-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Stile
01-20-2014 3:14 PM


Re: How to Debate on a Forum
But the fact remains that it's possible for doctors to leave the US and be a doctor in another country.
The part about it being "easy" would be weighed against the level of personal difficulty the doctor would be having in the US with the new laws... which is the part I was asking about.
To this and the comment about "brain drain" (which involves other professions as well as medicine) I ask:
Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money?
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor.
Curiously I think that would be an improvement.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Stile, posted 01-20-2014 3:14 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Stile, posted 01-21-2014 8:19 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 10:45 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 270 by Taq, posted 01-23-2014 6:23 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 271 by onifre, posted 01-24-2014 9:08 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 245 of 316 (716760)
01-21-2014 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by RAZD
01-20-2014 6:11 PM


Re: How to Debate on a Forum
RAZD writes:
Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money?
Point well taken.
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor.
Curiously I think that would be an improvement.
Yes, but it seems to be a popular human condition to seek rewards.
In the US, the doctors are basically rewarded (get the most money) by caring for the rich who can afford to pay a lot of money? I think that's the easiest to be corrupted.
In Canada, the doctors are basically rewarded with "patients seen." Which is a bit better, but is still corrupted quite a bit.
For a small example: Some doctors will call you into their office, where you have to take a day off work and still wait close to an hour after the appointment time that they made... for them to tell you that they received your test results and everything looks pretty good so they're not going to prescribe anything at this time and we'll see if anything else develops in the future.
Something they could easily tell you over the phone in about 8 seconds.
But, when you go in... they get to sign you off on some sheet as "a patient seen that day." And then they get paid a bit more...
I think in Europe there are some systems where the rewards are based on improving the health of patients?
For example: Someone comes in addicted to smoking and the doctor helps them quit... then the doctor gets a bit of a bonus?
Not sure, I don't know much about European healthcare... but I think I heard something like that.
That sounds like a pretty decent system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2014 6:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2014 12:44 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 316 (716775)
01-21-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by RAZD
01-20-2014 6:11 PM


Re: How to Debate on a Forum
Would you rather be treated by a doctor that wants to doctor or one that wants to make money?
Why does that have to be an either/or? Why not both?
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor.
That don't necessarily make them good doctors.
I know my doctor personally, outside of him being my doctor. He's really smart and great at what he does. But he is also in high demand (he' not currently taking new patients). Too, he ain't cheap.
But I'm willing to pay more for a great doctor that I know personally. On the one hand, I can afford it. On the other, I don't bother him with every belly-ache I get and reserve his expertise for when its truly needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2014 6:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2014 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 316 (716776)
01-21-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Stile
01-20-2014 3:14 PM


Re: How to Debate on a Forum
I accept your viewpoint. But, really, I think it's your reading comprehension.
I don't think I actually came across as jumping to conclusions, I think I came across more as hearing a bunch of things and looking for more information. If you seriously think otherwise, you may want to consider your own bias.
It is very difficult to judge one's own writing so I could easily be wrong. But for the life of me I can't see the position you're claiming I took.
FWIW, I got what you were saying and agree that the problem lies with Theo.
But I, too, have had to explain to him what a question mark is/means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Stile, posted 01-20-2014 3:14 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2014 10:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 248 of 316 (716778)
01-21-2014 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by New Cat's Eye
01-21-2014 10:48 AM


CS attacks again, ad nauseum
FWIW, I got what you were saying and agree that the problem lies with Theo.
But I, too, have had to explain to him what a question mark is/means.
Again you can not resist any chance to get in a personal attack. There was absolutely no reason for you to add this snide little attack.
How about staying out of conversations if all you are doing is making a personal attack. This is crazy. Every time anyone makes any comment that is remotely critical of me you have to add your two cents and pile on about how you think I am a problem.
Grow up.
Edited by Theodoric, : Subtitle

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 11:03 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 316 (716779)
01-21-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Theodoric
01-21-2014 10:54 AM


Re: CS attacks again, ad nauseum
Again you can not resist any chance to get in a personal attack.
False. You offer plenty of chances on a daily basis and I resist most of them.
There was absolutely no reason for you to add this snide little attack.
Wrong again. The reason was to explain to Stile that he was correct in his assessment.
Can you ever get anything right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2014 10:54 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 250 of 316 (716785)
01-21-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Stile
01-21-2014 8:19 AM


many rewards
Yes, but it seems to be a popular human condition to seek rewards.
Rewards aren't necessarily monetary. Doctors without Borders.
I think in Europe there are some systems where the rewards are based on improving the health of patients?
For example: Someone comes in addicted to smoking and the doctor helps them quit... then the doctor gets a bit of a bonus?
Not sure, I don't know much about European healthcare... but I think I heard something like that.
That sounds like a pretty decent system.
Preventative medicine is way cheaper than treating ailments.
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Stile, posted 01-21-2014 8:19 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 251 of 316 (716786)
01-21-2014 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by New Cat's Eye
01-21-2014 10:45 AM


Good is related to ability,
That don't necessarily make them good doctors.
Charging a lot doesn't make them better either.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 10:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 12:56 PM RAZD has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 316 (716787)
01-21-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
01-21-2014 12:46 PM


Re: Good is related to ability,
That don't necessarily make them good doctors.
Charging a lot doesn't make them better either.
No shit, but the better you are, the more people are going to be willing to pay you.
When you're so good that people are competing to get you, then you may even get offers for higher pay.
quote:
Take excess profits out of the picture and you end up with doctors that want to doctor.
And you also risk losing great doctors, which would not be an improvement...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2014 12:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2014 1:05 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2014 2:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 268 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2014 7:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 253 of 316 (716788)
01-21-2014 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by New Cat's Eye
01-21-2014 12:56 PM


Re: Good is related to ability,
And you also risk losing great doctors
But then again there is no way to show this is true. It may seem intuitive to you, but it is not necessarily true. IF doctors pay is reduced 10% what else are they going to do, become drug reps?
Also, most excess profits in the medical industry do not go to the doctors in the first place. As a matter of fact insurance companies and corporate medical companies are pressing down doctor compensation to some extent already.
One travesty of our system is that primary care physicians are the least compensated. There are certain specialties that make an obscene amount of money.
In my experience the doctors on the lower end of the pay scale seem to get the most reward from their jobs.
CS,
If you are going to respond please be civil. If you are going to just make personal attacks, I don't want to hear them.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 12:56 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 254 of 316 (716798)
01-21-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by New Cat's Eye
01-21-2014 12:56 PM


Re: Good is related to ability,
UK: Salaried GPs who are part of a CCG earn between 54,319 to 81,969
USA: The general practitioner in the United States receives an average yearly salary ranging from between $168,550 to $173,175 per year.
So in US, the pay is twice that of Britain. The language is the same, and the culture is not drastically different. Why does Britain have any doctors?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 12:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 3:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 316 (716804)
01-21-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Modulous
01-21-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Good is related to ability,
Why does Britain have any doctors?
Why wouldn't they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2014 2:57 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2014 3:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024