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Author | Topic: Premature babies have improved survival rates... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
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Severely premature babies: More survive being born early
...but is this a good thing? The key figures from the article are:
quote: But of those 53% that survive...
quote: Choosing to attempt to keep a 22-25 week premature baby alive, consigns that human, should it survive, to 1 in 5 chance of serious disability. I'm sorry, but I find this horrific. In our strange desperation to keep otherwise unviable pregnancies "successful" we are deliberately increasing the number of people with serious disabilities:
quote: What is wrong with us? Can we not just accept that gestation and pregnancy are not perfect, and many fetuses will not make it to a successful birth? Are our children not paying too high a price to ensure that we are comfortable with ourselves? For the record, I write this sat next to my youngest child - who was born with a serious congenital heart defect that required open heart surgery on his 6th day of life.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4042 Joined: Member Rating: 8.0 |
Hi cavediver,
I'm a premie. I was born several weeks premature, with underdeveloped lungs. I'm very happy to hear that more premature babies are surviving.
Choosing to attempt to keep a 22-25 week premature baby alive, consigns that human, should it survive, to 1 in 5 chance of serious disability. I'm sorry, but I find this horrific. In our strange desperation to keep otherwise unviable pregnancies "successful" we are deliberately increasing the number of people with serious disabilities: The value of human life is not in our ability to walk, or see. Blind people, largely, do not wish that they had never been born. And I'd take an 80% chance to be perfectly fine over death.
What is wrong with us? Can we not just accept that gestation and pregnancy are not perfect, and many fetuses will not make it to a successful birth? Are our children not paying too high a price to ensure that we are comfortable with ourselves? For the record, I write this sat next to my youngest child - who was born with a serious congenital heart defect that required open heart surgery on his 6th day of life. The same statistic also means that the numbers of perfectly healthy children are increasing. If a woman wants to abort a fetus because a test shows that it carries a genetic disorder, I don't care. That's fine. But I don't see anything wrong with having a blind child, or a lame child. The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Although not all blind people want to see, or deaf people want to hear, we are making amazing jumps in finding technological solutions for deafness, sight, not being able to walk ...
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi cavediver,
Severely premature babies: More survive being born early But of those 53% that survive...
quote: Choosing to attempt to keep a 22-25 week premature baby alive, consigns that human, should it survive, to 1 in 5 chance of serious disability. I'm sorry, but I find this horrific. In our strange desperation to keep otherwise unviable pregnancies "successful" we are deliberately increasing the number of people with serious disabilities: ... This gets me back to the question of when we define human life to be present. In two previous threads I put forward an argument of when we should rationally consider life -- human life -- to begin:
Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion (now closed) and
Legal Death, Legal Life (still open for comments) quote: (where I would define "assisted premature birth" to mean Cesarean birth in a medical facility or similar procedure/s.) The question of premature birth and disabilities was also addressed in the earlier version:
quote: And this is where I think the parents are the ones to make the decision -- based on knowledge of the risks and their personal beliefs. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.4 |
I agree with your view, and note that large numbers of premature babies without severe disabilities have more minor problems from lowered IQ to behavioural difficulties. However, that's not the problem that I think sways it: instead, I think saving premature babies is a poor use of finite resources.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I'm a premie. I was born several weeks premature, with underdeveloped lungs. I'm not really talking about a few weeks prem here. But in any case, you're last the person I want to hear from in terms of opinion to this topic In much the way that I have practically zero interest in hearing a victim's view to the appropriate punishment for an offender.
Blind people, largely, do not wish that they had never been born. Of course - and again, largely irrelevant to my point. My sister is seriously pissed off that she's never been born!
And I'd take an 80% chance to be perfectly fine over death. At the point of death in question here, who is this "I"?
The same statistic also means that the numbers of perfectly healthy children are increasing. But they'd increase even more if we didn't attempt to save borderline viable prems - assuming that those (prospective) parents went on to have further children.
But I don't see anything wrong with having a blind child, or a lame child. If an early scan revealed that your prospective child was blind (say eyes have failed to develop), would you not consider an abortion? More hypothetically: you/wife/partner go for IVF treatment or similar. You have five viable embryos, but it is pointed out that three of them will be born blind should they carry to full term. You can implant one. Which one? (apologies if this is in any way sensitive to you - tell me to get lost if you'd prefer not to discuss) I would choose to abort (though I cannot speak for my wife) and I would choose to implant one of the two embryos. Does that make me an evil eugenecist? Or an obnoxious ablist? I'd like to think neither but others may disgree. If I had known at an early scan that my youngest was going to be born with his defect, I would have been tempted to propose an abortion. My opinion on this does not change in any way, despite having the most wonderful relationship with my exceptionally gifted younger son. If we had lost him during the operation, or lost the fetus that was to otherwise become him by abortion, then I may have the most wonderful daughter in his place. As it is, I will sadly never have that daughter.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Hi RAZ,
And this is where I think the parents are the ones to make the decision -- based on knowledge of the risks and their personal beliefs. But as MrJack points out, there is a very large cost involved here. Surely it is simply easier to accept a prem birth as unviable and try again? That method has been working well, in one form or another, for the past 3 billion years...
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Or for the cost of one fighter plane we could cover the lifetime costs of 100 to 300 such cases.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
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Or for the cost of one fighter plane we could cover... ...many of the shortfalls in the UK National Health Service, and I would put work on saving prem babies very far down on the very long list of priorities. Keeping existing humans in a good to great state of health seems far more worthwhile than trying to rescue otherwise unviable fetuses given the virtually limitless supply of viable fetuses. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Unless you happen to be one of those babies.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Unless you happen to be one of those babies. But I don't believe there is any "you" or "I" in those babies. Even when I was a theist, I didn't believe it was fixed like that. There's a great episode of Moonlighting, where Bruce Willis who usually plays David, plays Baby Hayes, David and Maddie Hayes' unborn child, sat in Maddie's womb, chatting with his guardian angel. In order to calm Baby Hayes' anxiety about his forthcoming birth and life, the angel explains how great David and Maddie are, and how they will make wonderful parents. At the last minute, Maddie suffers a miscarriage. The angel explains to Baby Hayes that there's been a change of plan, and David and Maddie will no longer be his parents. He's actually going to be born to Bill Crosby (I think) and "don't worry, it will be great" - love it
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
While there may be no you before birth there is after birth, and even before birth there are parents who are you or I.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
While there may be no you before birth there is after birth Eventually - "I" start to emerge over the 18 months.
and even before birth there are parents who are you or I. True. And I grieve for the children my wife and I are not bringing into being. Based on our two, they would be wondeful children, who would certainly bring something to the world. And we're choosing not to have these children. And that makes me sad because I miss them
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Ah, but those other parents made different decisions.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 374 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Following an amniotic fluid test in the 22nd week of pregnancy our first child was diagnosed with trisomy 21. He had a hole in his heart and a long list of likely and potential problems. Our doctor spelled out a comprehensive network of support programs and available medical interventions including the in utero heart surgery that would be necessary.
I read and read and read. I researched. I went to our local resource centre where the disabled spend time and spent some time with them. With some, I looked into their clear eyes and laughed with them as one laughs with a child. With others I looked into their clear eyes and saw a prisoner. They knew...they knew that they had the short end of the stick and that it would never get any better. Absolutely fucking horrific. After a week of gut wrenching deliberation we decided to abort the child. I determined that I might not have the courage to kill him if his misery was too great after he was born. (See the case of Robert Latimer )This fact nags at me to this day. Had I been more courageous I might have afforded him some hours or years of life. I feel like I should have made certain that the best thing was for him to die. Society does not grant me this freedom.
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