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Author Topic:   Have some scientists been too fanatical?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 46 of 101 (679872)
11-16-2012 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 3:15 AM


quote:
It's interesting that you include the funding referance.
  —sinamatic
Not really. Science is funded by someone to deliver results that can be used. Those guys who do the research have to eat to be able to do that research, you know.
Pseudo-science is funded by very, very wealthy religious sources for only one purpose: religion. They get their money for nothing.
quote:
Seems to me that scientists working with a evolution based mindset....
  —sinamatic
Science is not a mindset. It's a method.
quote:
.. have recieved far more money because it is by far the more popular and accepted theory.
  —sinamatic
Really? Why do oil companies fund research into oil exploration to geologists, and not to churches? I'll give you a hint; science works. They find oil that way.
You again forget another thing I mentioned: the overwhelming majority of relevant Christian scientists accept the theory of evolution. They do it for scientific reasons. Not religious reasons.
You forgot another thing, geology is geology. No "evolutionary mindset" at all.
The theory of evolution is a biological theory. Not a geological one.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : Changed last sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 3:15 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 47 of 101 (679880)
11-16-2012 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 5:23 AM


I don’t want to answer this on behalf of Dr Adequate, but I’ll give my short answer.
It really, really is going to sound rude to you, but it isn’t. There’s no way I can say what I have to say to make it sound tame.
I’ll give a short version of my answer. I’ll react to this:
Ok last reply for the night, I should have put them all together but oh well. I did get your point, however it's not a very accurate depiction in my mind. An extremist aethiest would be someone who believes that anyone who doesnt believe that life spontaniously came about.
1. Atheists don’t believe in the existence of a God or Gods. That’s it.
2. Atheism has nothing to do with life spontaneously coming about.
3. Looking at the rest of your response, you don’t realize that the theory of evolution does not deal with the origin of life. It deals with what happened after the origin of life.
You, thus, are very ignorant, both about what atheism is and also about science.
An extremist thinks that any one that believes in a god does not think logically and is automatically a fool.
Well, some versions of the Bible say;
NIV Psalm 14:1 For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
You just classified your own Holy Book as extremist.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 5:23 AM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 48 of 101 (679881)
11-16-2012 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 5:23 AM


An extremist thinks that any one that believes in a god does not think logically and is automatically a fool.
Well, talk me through this. I've seen plenty of Christian apologists say that anyone who does not believe in God does not think logically. Also that I deserve to suffer perpetual torment in hell. And some of them have quoted the Bible saying: "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God".
Let me quote the whole passage. What the Bible says, and what Bible-believing Christians must all believe, is this:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
That's what the Bible says about me. It says that I'm a fool, that I am corrupt, that I have done abominable works. I have never said anything so hateful about someone just because they're a Christian. I like Christians, I just think that they're wrong about some things.
And this is what I'm talking about. If I thought every Christian was a "fool", which I don't, then I would be an "extremist" atheist, I'd be a "fanatic". If, on the other hand, a Christian believes that I'm a fool, that I'm corrupt, that I never do anything good, and that I do abominable works, then he isn't an extremist. He's just a Bible-believing Christian.
I do not say to a Christian that he is a fool, that he is corrupt, that he never does anything good, and that he does abominable works. But because I say that he might well be wrong about the existence of God, then I'm the extremist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 5:23 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 101 (679883)
11-16-2012 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Pressie
11-16-2012 7:23 AM


I don’t want to answer this on behalf of Dr Adequate ...
Well, you didn't do a bad job. You even quoted Psalms 14:1. If I ever want someone to stand in for me, you will be my first choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2012 7:23 AM Pressie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 101 (679890)
11-16-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 3:42 AM


Re: True Christians
Not at all. Christianity is not at all like being a scientist or doctor or carpenter, rather it is like being an Elk or Mason or Republican or Democrat. If someone is a member of some Chapter of Club Christian then they are a Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 3:42 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 51 of 101 (679891)
11-16-2012 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 4:15 AM


Re: The war on error
I like most of what you said here because it does carry the most truth that I've read so far
Thank you. There is a much less contentious war of a similar nature in the UK. Secularism has won for the most part - but there are still bishops that have the right to set in our legislative houses and vote on pending legislation.
However bear in mind that not all of christianity has been as horrid as so many people claim.
Right and Saddam promoted women's education, Hitler fixed the economy, much of NAMBLA's membership probably pay their taxes on time, communists have struggled for worker's rights...
I'm not saying Christianity is equivalent to those things, just that your argument in their defence is. I've never said that all of Christianity is as horrid as many people claim. Though Christianity on the whole, in practice, has been problematic.
They have been on the recieving end of it too in history
Just because some Christians at some times have been unjustly persecuted, does not defend Christianity as a whole. Those Christians that acquire power are often corrupted by it, and use their power to influence politics, education, social matters, health and probably other areas too. And there are many Christian politicians (disproportionally so - according their stated positions), educators, doctors etc., so Christianity has considerable power at its disposal. And it gets abused.
If these abuses of power didn't take place, you'd find that atheists would be less pissed off at Christianity. Christians often ask why atheists seem to attack Christianity, but almost seem to defend Islam. That's not exactly what happens, but what you are seeing is a reaction to the power of Christianity over the lives of the speakers and their kin. If Islam had as much power as Christianity in the USA you'd see that being criticised (unless strict Blasphemy laws got passed, which they probably would, then there maybe less people willing to speak out)
If Christians are willing to acknowledge that they are The Man, the religious/philosophical position that has sufficient power to write and vote for legislation or other policies in its favour, and then compensate and avoid such abuses, we'd see less vocal atheism or at least less anti-Christianism, I'm sure.
But Christians aren't completely unique. Atheists and skeptics go after Islam when appropriate (esp, but not only, in cases where the Muslims in question have power), homeopathy, chiropracty, bigfoot believers, UFOlogists
There have also been millions that went to church, tried to live a moral and god fearing life and have never hurt a soul. Many have started charities and live only to help their fellow man.
I agree there are many Christians who try to be good people (and sometimes succeed). I would claim that they can also try to be good people without Christianity. That atheists can start, or fund, charity.
Au contraire, I hang out with more non believers. I find it funny that you assume that automatically.
Why?
You live in a country that is predominated by Christians, so the chances are most people you hang out with are Christians. And you are a Christian, so it's reasonable to conclude that you probably are part of a Christian community. Furthermore you highlighted christians who used to be violent and reckless, which strongly suggests you haven't met many non-believers with the same story. Finally, if your location details are accurate, you live in a small town. If my demographic knowledge is right, its likely to be more Christian than America as a whole and certainly would be expected to be less 'nonbeliever'-friendly. Though Michigan as a whole has a pretty significant non-religious contingent.
So I didn't assume automatically. I made a reasonable evidence based conclusion. Such conclusions can still be wrong, of course.
You make my point though as you admit that people benefit from formal moral tutoring. I never implied that it must come from a church or christian.
You kind of did imply it. You said:
quote:
Hate it or love it, christianity HAS kept many people sane. I've met people that have been violent and reckless who found Jesus and are now self controlled.
Which definitely implies that Christianity/Jesus are special in some way with regards to learning discipline or staying sane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 4:15 AM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 7:21 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 52 of 101 (679894)
11-16-2012 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 3:27 AM


This is just flat out not true from my experiences. I would never call someone uncivil for not believing in a god. Finding the truth would never hurt my feelings btw, undermining my intelligence would though.
Here is what you said before:
"Sometimes I feel like the general population of unbelievers have taken a "south park" stance on christianity. I mean how is it ok to portray what some people view as the almighty god as a dufus comic figure? These are sensitive topics and could carry weighty or even violent consequences if things get too out of hand."
So who are the fanatics? Those who parody those they don't agree with, or those who do acts of violence against those who use parody?
I just find it fascinating that you would portray atheists as fanatics given the actions of modern christians and the history of the modern church. When was the last time you had an atheist missionary knock on your door? When was the last time atheists ran an Inquisition?
Yes, we ardently argue our position. Yes, we think you are wrong. Yes, we think that theists removing science from the classroom in the name of religion is hurting society. Yes, we will stand up for our principles. Does that make us fanatics?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 3:27 AM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 101 (679902)
11-16-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by sinamatic
11-14-2012 11:39 PM


Sometimes I feel like the general population of unbelievers have taken a "south park" stance on christianity. I mean how is it ok to portray what some people view as the almighty god as a dufus comic figure? These are sensitive topics and could carry weighty or even violent consequences if things get too out of hand.
Of course some stories in the Bible portray what some people view as the almighty god as a dufus comic figure.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by sinamatic, posted 11-14-2012 11:39 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 6:48 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 54 of 101 (679931)
11-16-2012 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by sinamatic
11-14-2012 11:39 PM


sinamatic writes:
I mean how is it ok to portray what some people view as the almighty god as a dufus comic figure?
It's the Christians who are portraying Him. Atheists (and others) are interpreting that portrayal as a comical dufus. It's like laughing at a really bad performance of Hamlet. Don't blame the audience; blame the actors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by sinamatic, posted 11-14-2012 11:39 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
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sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 55 of 101 (679956)
11-16-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Pressie
11-16-2012 7:23 AM


1. Atheists don’t believe in the existence of a God or Gods. That’s it.
2. Atheism has nothing to do with life spontaneously coming about.
3. Looking at the rest of your response, you don’t realize that the theory of evolution does not deal with the origin of life. It deals with what happened after the origin of life.
You, thus, are very ignorant, both about what atheism is and also about science.
You are here: Science >> Darwin's Theory Of Evolution
Darwin's Theory of Evolution - The Premise
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the widely held notion that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic (undirected) "descent with modification". That is, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).
common ancestor means that somewhere somehow life did start from non life.
I understand that an aethiest is someone who does not believe in a god or gods.
I'm not ignorant, but you can keep thinking so, I don't care

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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2012 7:26 PM sinamatic has replied
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 11-16-2012 9:13 PM sinamatic has replied
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2012 5:48 AM sinamatic has replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 56 of 101 (679957)
11-16-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
11-16-2012 1:48 PM


It's the Christians who are portraying Him. Atheists (and others) are interpreting that portrayal as a comical dufus. It's like laughing at a really bad performance of Hamlet. Don't blame the audience; blame the actors.
Fair enough, I would agree with this

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sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 57 of 101 (679958)
11-16-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
11-16-2012 9:52 AM


Of course some stories in the Bible portray what some people view as the almighty god as a dufus comic figure.
Yep that's your opinion and interpretation. I and many others would not agree though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 11-16-2012 9:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 101 (679962)
11-16-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by sinamatic
11-16-2012 6:48 PM


Sure many might disagree
Sure many might disagree but the stories still say what they say.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by sinamatic, posted 11-16-2012 6:48 PM sinamatic has not replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 59 of 101 (679963)
11-16-2012 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taq
11-16-2012 9:35 AM


So who are the fanatics? Those who parody those they don't agree with, or those who do acts of violence against those who use parody?
Both imo, though I'll admit that the ones doing acts of violence would be far more of a fanatic. I would like to think that christians would never resort to violence but I know it has happened before, despite what the bible and more specifically Jesus teaches. It's a shame and an embarassment to the religion.
I don't have an overwhelming problem with south park. I do feel that at times its a poor excuse for comedy. Its what I call shock comedy, sort of along the lines of a horror movie that just uses excessive gore with a bad story.
Thats my opinion and I don't mean to make any great claims about south park. It's still on so a lot of people must like it, which I'm fine with. I was just trying to offer up an example of a television show that might go a bit over board. It's prob not the best example but I said it,so I'll own it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 11-16-2012 9:35 AM Taq has not replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 60 of 101 (679965)
11-16-2012 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Modulous
11-16-2012 8:56 AM


Re: The war on error
Just because some Christians at some times have been unjustly persecuted, does not defend Christianity as a whole. Those Christians that acquire power are often corrupted by it, and use their power to influence politics, education, social matters, health and probably other areas too. And there are many Christian politicians (disproportionally so - according their stated positions), educators, doctors etc., so Christianity has considerable power at its disposal. And it gets abused.
If these abuses of power didn't take place, you'd find that atheists would be less pissed off at Christianity. Christians often ask why atheists seem to attack Christianity, but almost seem to defend Islam. That's not exactly what happens, but what you are seeing is a reaction to the power of Christianity over the lives of the speakers and their kin. If Islam had as much power as Christianity in the USA you'd see that being criticised (unless strict Blasphemy laws got passed, which they probably would, then there maybe less people willing to speak out)
If Christians are willing to acknowledge that they are The Man, the religious/philosophical position that has sufficient power to write and vote for legislation or other policies in its favour, and then compensate and avoid such abuses, we'd see less vocal atheism or at least less anti-Christianism, I'm sure.
But Christians aren't completely unique. Atheists and skeptics go after Islam when appropriate (esp, but not only, in cases where the Muslims in question have power), homeopathy, chiropracty, bigfoot believers, UFOlogists
Yeah I agree that Christians have messed up a lot and its a real shame. I don't mean to imply that I feel like only aethiests should change how they interact with christians. I think that christians have a lot of adjusting to do in order to one day gain some respect from aethiests. The sad part though is that usually when one side insults the other, it is returned. Both sides are guilty of this, speaking on the level of the general population. This I feel needs to change, because I doubt either side is ever going away and it would be a real pity to discount someone based only on their personal belief.

This message is a reply to:
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