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Author Topic:   Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 231 (212866)
05-31-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
05-31-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Show me the logic
Faith writes:
Didn't you say my premise was just fine last post?
Your premise was fine until you injected randomness into it. It's the idea of randomness that's wrong.
...selection sure does put a lot of PURPOSE and MEANING into the process.
I never said it did. Most people are capable of finding purpose and meaning in their own lives.
Science has some gall trying to explain the human condition if you ask me.
Actually, I didn't ask you, but thanks for your input anyway.
Yup, survival, reproduction, exactly as I said. What a LOVELY value, a LOVELY purpose to life.
Again, I never said that. Survival and reproduction are necessary for us to have life. But it's our responsibility to find our own purpose and meaning. We can't rely on any natural process or religious spoon-feeding to give it to us.
Natural selection is a blind process.... There is nothing purposive in natural selection beyond immediate adaptation. The appeal of human-directed selection, on the other hand, is obvious -- it would be guided by intelligence to supposedly ideal purposes.
So you agree then that natural selection and eugenics are exact opposites?
And certainly your opinion trumps that of millions of others who disagree with you.
I'm not going to get into a game of "my-millions-can-beat-your-millions". I'm also not going to call you on that completely unsupported assertion. This topic is about logic, it's not a popularity contest. If millions of people are illogical, that doesn't help your case.
This is not about you and me or anybody personally, this is about the natural tendency of the idea of evolution....
You are the one that claims that evolution --> lack of purpose --> despair. As somebody else has said, it seems that you percieve evolution as a threat to your world view and that produces despair in you.
I only refered to your bleak world view in reference to your logic. Your reasoning would more properly be: evolution --> threat to Christianity --> despair among Christians.
I certainly didn't mean it as a personal attack, but only as an observation.
I'm sorry that you feel it necessary to call my objections "stupid".
As I've said before in other threads, I'll leave it to the intelligent members of the board to decide whose posts make sense.
-------------
Edit: I didn't see your edited-in, left-handed apology before I posted. Again, I'll leave it to the intelligent members to decide who's insulting whom. (Note to moderators: please don't sanction Faith on my account.)
This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-05-31 01:00 PM

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 05-31-2005 2:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-31-2005 3:08 PM ringo has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 231 (212869)
05-31-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
05-31-2005 2:56 PM


Re: Show me the logic
What a pretense of intelligence with no substance. Have a good day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 05-31-2005 2:56 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Alasdair, posted 05-31-2005 3:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 168 of 231 (212871)
05-31-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
05-30-2005 6:32 PM


Re: based on Darwinism
Faith, try reading what you and I both wrote. I include it here to save you having to find the posts again
By contrast, a Biblical ethic counters racist tendencies and leads to a concern for all members of the human race, because it says we are all made in the image of God and all descend from one set of parents.
Tell that to the barbecued inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah amongst many others. Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition. Tell that to the victims of the Salem witch hunts. Since all of these horrendous acts were "justified" by using the Bible, can we say that they were the logical result of Christianity?
Note that I continued quoting you past the section which mentions racist tendencies and included
and leads to a concern for all members of the human race, because it says we are all made in the image of God and all descend from one set of parents.
I wasn't just dealing with your comment on racist tendencies, but the rest of your take on Biblical ethic.
I notice that you mentioned only Sodom and Gomorrah and had no comment to make on my other examples. Could it be because you see that the point I make is valid? If we are to judge the "ethics" of evolution on the uses misguided people have put it to, shouldn't the same judgement be made of the Bible? Or maybe you see that neither should be judged in this way.
This message has been edited by Trixie, 05-31-2005 03:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 05-30-2005 6:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 169 of 231 (212872)
05-31-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-31-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Show me the logic
quote:
What a pretense of intelligence with no substance.
Ah, but on who's part? A response to Ringo would be nice...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-31-2005 3:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 170 of 231 (212873)
05-31-2005 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
05-29-2005 10:29 PM


Re: Show me the logic
Well I;'ve been LOOKING for an argument from Faith to support her view and this seems to be the nearest approach.
quote:
Darwinism says human beings were evolved by purely chemical and biological (mechanical and physical) means from early forms of life.
I've no problem with that.
quote:
This results in a mechanical and physical understanding of human nature without any intrinsic value or meaning except that we exist, we got here.
Now THIS is something that needs support. It can be pointed out that this is a clear example of a genetic fallacy - intrinsic value would come from what we are, not the means by which we came to be. Indeed the whole claim rests on ignoring completely what we are.
Moreover eugenics presumes that humanity is worth preserving and offers a purpose of continually improving the species. Therefore even if this claim were true it would undermine the claim it is supposed to prove.
If I wanted a view that REALLY devalued human life it would be the view professed by some Christians. The idea that all humans are worthless sinners, deserving of unending torment, that God will save some as he chooses despite their lack of worth.. That this view can be put forward at all shows that the idea of human creation does not in itself imbue us with worth or a true purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 10:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 171 of 231 (213580)
06-02-2005 3:30 PM


Bump for Faith
I'd appreciate a reply to Message 168 please.
edited by AdminJar to make link active to prior message.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 06-02-2005 02:48 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 8:58 PM Trixie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 231 (213670)
06-02-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Trixie
06-02-2005 3:30 PM


Re: Bump for Faith
I wasn't just dealing with your comment on racist tendencies, but the rest of your take on Biblical ethic.
I notice that you mentioned only Sodom and Gomorrah and had no comment to make on my other examples. Could it be because you see that the point I make is valid? If we are to judge the "ethics" of evolution on the uses misguided people have put it to, shouldn't the same judgement be made of the Bible? Or maybe you see that neither should be judged in this way.
By contrast, a Biblical ethic counters racist tendencies and leads to a concern for all members of the human race, because it says we are all made in the image of God and all descend from one set of parents.
Tell that to the barbecued inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah amongst many others. Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition. Tell that to the victims of the Salem witch hunts. Since all of these horrendous acts were "justified" by using the Bible, can we say that they were the logical result of Christianity?
Anything can be twisted to fit any purpose. For example, is drunk driving the logical result of the invention of the internal combustion engine? Is stabbing someone to death the logical result of inventing kitchen knives? Was the Columbine High School massacre the logical result of the invention of fire arms?
It may have escaped your notice, but God actually gave us free will!!! We choose how to interpret information, each and every one of us. If we choose to use it for good, then that's down to us; if we choose to use it for evil, then that's down to us too. You can't blame the information for the subsequent actions of people.
The subject was racism and you chose to answer something else. Am I required to answer your Something Else? I answered the subject, which was racism.
Biblical theology counters racist tendencies for the reason I gave. An acknowledgment of the point before changing the subject would be in order.
THEN you may change the subject or start another one of those interminable threads where God is accused of all kinds of evils because He had the effrontery to punish Sodom and Gomorrah (or anybody at all) for their sins, or Christians are accused of evil because of what the apostate Catholic Church did hundreds of years ago (and did it to genuine Christians too) or because of a miscarriage of justice concerning a misidentification of witches. That is not the topic. Feel free to start your own.
The rest of your post is beyond my ability to interpret.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-02-2005 09:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Trixie, posted 06-02-2005 3:30 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 06-02-2005 11:16 PM Faith has replied
 Message 177 by Trixie, posted 06-03-2005 4:37 PM Faith has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 173 of 231 (213700)
06-02-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
06-02-2005 8:58 PM


Biblical theology counters racist tendencies for the reason I gave.
Your Biblical theology does. Other equally Biblical theologies support racism, and they say that your theology is false. Hey, as far as I'm concerned, you're all wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 8:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 1:19 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 231 (213718)
06-03-2005 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by crashfrog
06-02-2005 11:16 PM


FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT. THINK. YOU ARE ALWAYS ANSWERING SOMETHING OUT OF CONTEXT. THINK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 06-02-2005 11:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 06-03-2005 2:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 176 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2005 7:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 175 of 231 (213727)
06-03-2005 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
06-03-2005 1:19 AM


Hey Faith,
If you're coming out of hiding you might like to answer Message 166. As indicated by Message 169, others would like to see a better performance by you too.
If I am as unintelligent as you claim, you should be able to come up with a sustantial response instead of childish insults.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 1:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 176 of 231 (213784)
06-03-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
06-03-2005 1:19 AM


FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT. THINK.
I am thinking, Faith. That's how I know how wrong you are all the time.
YOU ARE ALWAYS ANSWERING SOMETHING OUT OF CONTEXT. THINK.
Translation: "Hopefully these capital letters will conceal the fact that, once again, I'm unable to rebut Crash's arguments."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 1:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 177 of 231 (213964)
06-03-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
06-02-2005 8:58 PM


Off Topic?
Thank you for your reply Faith, but I think you may have lost track of the topic itself. For you, here it is;
Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?
The point I'm making is that if we use the way misguided individuals have used Darwinism to answer the question, then we have every right to use the way that misguided people have used the Bible to answer questions about the Bible.
You may want to dwell on racism, but I prefer to dwell on the topic itself. You stated
a Biblical ethic counters racist tendencies and leads to a concern for all members of the human race, because it says we are all made in the image of God and all descend from one set of parents.
(emphasis mine)
You don't say...."by leading to a concern....". I really have trouble understanding how you can say that a concern for all members of the human race is evident in the examples I gave such as the Salem witchcraft trials or the Spanish Inquisition.
As for the claim that a Biblical ethic counters racism, it has been used to enforce racism by certain misguided individuals. That's why interpretation is everything when it comes to the Bible. There are so many ways it can be interpreted, some truly awful, but can you really blame the Bible for the awful and evil interpretations put on it by people? And by the same token, can we now blame the TOE for the nutters that twisted it into something it wasn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 8:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 5:15 PM Trixie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 231 (213974)
06-03-2005 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Trixie
06-03-2005 4:37 PM


Re: Off Topic?
a Biblical ethic counters racist tendencies and leads to a concern for all members of the human race, because it says we are all made in the image of God and all descend from one set of parents.
(emphasis mine)
You don't say...."by leading to a concern....". I really have trouble understanding how you can say that a concern for all members of the human race is evident in the examples I gave such as the Salem witchcraft trials or the Spanish Inquisition.
Sorry, I apparently didn't say it as clearly as I should have. You are focusing on the "concern" part of the sentence but I meant to emphasize "all members of the human race." The subject was racism. I wasn't talking about anything else.
I simply do not want to get into yet another discussion about the supposed evils of Biblical religion. I've had enough of that for now. The overall topic is eugenics and Darwinism, not the Bible, and yes it's logically consistent with Darwinism, as has already been discussed. IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO!!
{EDIT: This thread at least has a different topic as topics at EvC go. Why do you want to turn it into the same old same old?
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-03-2005 05:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Trixie, posted 06-03-2005 4:37 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Hrun, posted 06-03-2005 5:20 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 180 by Trixie, posted 06-03-2005 5:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Hrun
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 231 (213976)
06-03-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
06-03-2005 5:15 PM


Re: Off Topic?
Faith writes:
[...]and yes it's logically consistent with Darwinism, as has already been discussed. IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO!!
But the original question was not if it (Eugenics) is logically consistent with Darwinism but whether it is the logical result. The two are quite separate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 5:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 180 of 231 (213982)
06-03-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
06-03-2005 5:15 PM


Re: Off Topic?
I'm not really wanting to get into the topic of supposed Biblical evils either. All I'm saying is that if you want to judge the TOE by the uses it's been put to by pillocks, then you have to do the same for the Bible and the Bible can't stand up to that method of judgement, given historical events. If you feel that this method deals unfairly with the Bible then you must also see that it isn't dealing fairly with the TOE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 5:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 06-03-2005 6:42 PM Trixie has replied

  
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