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Author Topic:   Discrimination ok, if based on religion? what else then?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 248 (382137)
02-03-2007 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by RAZD
02-03-2007 8:56 AM


Re: what utter ...
Is about a lawsuit brought by students that are trying to substitute an alternate course of their choosing for one required by the university for admission. The university position is clear:
quote:
UC lawyers say Calvary Chapel students are free to study as they choose, but they still must take courses approved by the university system - or alternately take an SAT subject test - to gain admission to one of the UC's 10 campuses.
That's the defense attorneys spin on it, which may or may not be the case. Its a good defensive tactic, however, we have no idea if that is really the case. What we know, according to the article, is that the curricula was not honored, even though the Introduction to Buddhism, which is religious in nature, was allowed. Why is one accepted but the other isn't?
Either take the required courses like everyone else or take the SAT on the subject material. If they cannot pass the SAT on the subject material then there is no issue eh? If they can pass the SAT on the subject material then there is no issue eh? This is what every home schooled child is up against too.
That would be the quickest way to sweep it under the carpet, but that isn't why the lawsuit was filed. The suit comes from a discrimination clause where the school allegedly placed preferential treatment depending on content, rather than actual skills to write a well-documented and articulate thesis. Since I don't know all the circumstances in the case, I can't say with certainty that the students or the school is in the wrong. What I can say with certainty is that there is a culture war and that universities across America are dominated by those of a liberal persuasion.
It is the role of the school teaching the course to get it accredited with the universities to count for admission requirements. It is not the role of students trying to use a non-accredited course in place of an accredited course to change admission standards.
According to the plaintiffs the admission standards is just being used as an escape clause, when in fact, others have been accepted with a similar thesis, but the others have been excluded.
I would expect that if the requirement was to take an accredited course in american history, and a student took a course titled "The Role of Thomas Jefferson in American History" that it would NOT meet that requirement, even though Jefferson had a bigger role in american history than christianity.
Why wouldn't the role of Thomas Jefferson be admissible? Its perfectly applicable.
There goes the loony right trying to re-write history and academic standards ... and push a political religious agenda.
Or there goes a loony left trying to rewrite history and academic standards, because its unquestionable that Judeo-Christian ideals have played a central role in the shaping of American politics, and thereby extension, played a central role in America's early history.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 182 of 248 (382153)
02-03-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 1:04 PM


Re: what utter ...
Or there goes a loony left trying to rewrite history and academic standards, because its unquestionable that Judeo-Christian ideals have played a central role in the shaping of American politics, and thereby extension, played a central role in America's early history.
Really? I find it highly questionable. As far as I can tell "Judeo-Christian ideals" (as though you could wrap Judaism and Christianity up into the same tradition - laughable) have been a set of shackles we, as a nation, have been struggling to throw off. It was the Judeo-Christian ideal of rule by kings that many fled here to escape, after all.
So, you tell me who's trying to rewrite history, and leveraging spurious tort suits against public institutions in order to do so?

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 183 of 248 (382161)
02-03-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 1:04 PM


Re: what utter ...
What we know, according to the article, is that the curricula was not honored, even though the Introduction to Buddhism, which is religious in nature, was allowed. Why is one accepted but the other isn't?
Because intro to Buddhism is not a history course, nor does it presume to replace a history course that is on the required list for admission to the university. What it DOES show is diversity in OTHER curricula interests. A university sets minimum requirements for history math science etc and then has other criteria to evaluate diversity of interests.
I used to interview students for admission to my alma mater (Duke) and the issue of diversity was high on choosing between students once the REQUIRED standards had been met, but it did not replace the required standards.
The university response that the students can take the SAT in the subject shows they are talking about a required standard and not a diversity one.
That would be the quickest way to sweep it under the carpet, but that isn't why the lawsuit was filed. The suit comes from a discrimination clause where the school allegedly placed preferential treatment depending on content, rather than actual skills to write a well-documented and articulate thesis. Since I don't know all the circumstances in the case, I can't say with certainty that the students or the school is in the wrong.
But that doesn't stop you from making unwarranted assertions.
The SAT's only apply for required courses: taking them is like taking the GED exam -- it shows you have minimum proficiency in the required material to meet the university requirements.
General Educational Development - Wikipedia
Why wouldn't the role of Thomas Jefferson be admissible? Its perfectly applicable.
Because it is not ALL of american history, so this is not enough to meet a requirement to have a background in american history.
because its unquestionable that Judeo-Christian ideals have played a central role in the shaping of American politics,...
Unquestionable? Central?
Show me where democracy, equality, liberty and freedom are developed from Judeo-Christian ideals. The things that differentiate american politics from the theocratic or the king\subject politics of pre-revolution america and from the politics of other countries is what defines american politics.
Show me how these Judeo-Christian ideals form the difference between america and other countries.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 184 of 248 (382313)
02-04-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 1:04 PM


academic standards ... for the american taliban
What does the Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta teach?
http://www.cccsmurrieta.com/secondary/aboutus.asp
quote:
Mission Statement
EQUIPPING TODAY FOR TOMORROW
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Philosophy of Education
The basis of our philosophy is belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ our Savior, the Holy Spirit, and God’s Word - the Bible. We believe in the authority and reliability of the Bible as the complete and final revelation of God concerning all matters of faith, truth and practice. MORE
Philosophy of Education cont.
The basis of our philosophy is belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ our Savior, the Holy Spirit, and God’s Word - the Bible. We believe in the authority and reliability of the Bible as the complete and final revelation of God concerning all matters of faith, truth and practice.
All our goals and objectives are based on the Bible. These goals and objectives include:
1. All that we do is to the glory of God (I Corinthians 10:31).
2. Our primary goal is to assure the salvation of all of our students (Matthew 28:19,20).
3. To promote the maturity of our students in doctrine and practice (Ephesians 6:4 & Colossians 1:28,29).
4. To train our students in Christian service and ministry (II Timothy 2:2).
5. Teach our students a sound mastery of basic skills, self-discipline, and good work habits.
What is a Warrior?
noun: A man engaged or experienced in warfare, a person engaged in some struggle or conflict, a soldier, a champion.
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ." 2 Cor. 10:4-5
Warrior??? What does that have to do with education? Sounds like they are being prepared more for {battle with} than for {understanding of} the world. Isn't that just like what Islamic schools are pictured as doing in the middle east?
Looking through their curricula I saw a lot of qualifiers "for christ\ian"
Doing a google on some of the texts
American Republic for Christian Schools
Publisher: Bob Jones University Press (1988) - 2nd edition (June 2000)
Amazon.com Says nothing about the book (no reviews either), but Special Voucher Report -- With God On Their Side ... -- Rethinking Schools Online reviewed this and several other christian "textbooks" with these comments:
quote:
My study of textbooks used in evangelical and fundamentalist Christian schools underscores that the materials are biased toward an overwhelmingly conservative point of view on social, political, and religious matters.
Shorn of the text that makes them uniquely "textbooks" - long passages about the influence of Prince Metternich, descriptions of Thailand's geography, and explanations of the Electoral College - the materials are indistinguishable from the literature of the Religious Right.
The texts' approach to politics can be summarized this way: Democrats are deluded, liberals are villains, and conservatives are heroes. This is part of a pattern where descriptions used for people, groups, and movements clearly imply that some are unacceptable.
Abortion and homosexuality are strongly condemned. The coverage of abortion begins in elementary school materials and increases in both detail and vehemence through the grades. Language such as "innocent babies," "grisly procedure," "legalized murder," and "slaughter of unborn babies" is common.
Another pattern in the Christian school textbooks is that conservatives are cited and quoted with approval, while liberals are given less coverage, omitted, or treated in a critical fashion. A Beka's fourth-grade history text, for example, includes a color photograph and 22 lines about conservative Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. "Through his own hard work and God-given ability," the book says of Thomas, "he earned a law degree and achieved several important government positions." 6 Thurgood Marshall, the first African-American appointed to the court, is not mentioned at all.
The above material is a partial summary of my research. Analyzing the material in Christian school texts goes a long way to answering the question of why many conservative organizations advocate programs that would privatize U.S. education. Indeed, one of the primary reasons for conservative support of vouchers and various school choice programs is not only to provide financial support for religious schools, but to also expose larger numbers of American students to conservative ideology.
Cherry picking history to provide only a partial view, one full of distortions, lies of omission, misrepresentations and reactionary right wing propaganda, is not providing an education.
There is a culture war going on and the {invaders\instigators\perpetuators} are fundamentalist christian fanatics.
fa·nat·ic -noun 1. a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.
This is not education, it is indoctrination. Gettem while their young eh?
And you think this should be given credit for university admission? It would serve the school right if they lost their basic accreditation due to review of their material in the trial.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 185 of 248 (382317)
02-04-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 10:55 AM


Re: What's good for the goose is good for the gander
quote:
...could a conservative Christian work for the ACLU when all of ACLU cases are diametrically opposite to Judeo-Christian morals?
Even the cases where they defend the civil liberties of Christians ?
I'm not aware that even conservative Christians are opposed to civil liberties to that extent. It's just non-Christians having civil liberties that they seem object to. Which isn't very Christian of them.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 186 of 248 (382318)
02-04-2007 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 1:04 PM


more.
From San Fransisco Chronicle
Culture war pits UC vs. Christian way of teaching Religious schools challenge admission standards in court
quote:
In a small room at the University of California's headquarters in downtown Oakland, UC counsel Christopher Patti sat beside a stack of textbooks proposed for use by Calvary Chapel Christian School in Riverside County -- books UC rejected as failing to meet freshmen admission requirements.
Biology and physics textbooks from Christian publishers were found wanting, as were three Calvary humanities courses.
"The university is not telling these schools what they can and can't teach," Patti said. "What the university is doing is simply establishing what is and is not its entrance requirements. It's really a case of the university's ability to set its own admission standards. The university has no quarrel with Christian schools."
Hollyn Hollman, a church/state attorney for the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C., said the plaintiffs face "a high burden ... to prove they are being discriminated against," based on the rejection of a handful of courses alone.
But Wendell Bird, lead attorney for the schools, believes, "This is a liberty case, the right of nonpublic institutions to be free. I'd be bringing the same case if the clients were Jewish or Buddhist. It's very troubling to the largest Christian school organization in the country because it restrains freedom and could spread. Many trends tend to start in California."
In 1978, when he was a law student studying under Robert Bork -- whose rejected nomination to the Supreme Court was an early battle in the culture wars -- Bird published an influential article in the Yale Law Journal. In it, he laid out a strategy for using the courts to compel public schools to teach creationism alongside evolutionary theory.
Bird later argued, and lost, Edwards vs. Aguillard, before the Supreme Court. In that case, the justices overturned an attempt by Louisiana to give biblical creationism equal time in its public schools.
However, the Calvary Chapel case offered Bird and his allies fertile new ground for advancing the conservative Christian agenda in the public square.
UC policy, Patti explained, was to make "a distinction between courses that study religion in an academic way and courses that are intended to instruct in religious faith." He seemed pleased to be asked how, based on the brief course submission forms, UC could distinguish between the two.
"Here," he said, reading an excerpt from "Biology for Christian Schools," which had been rejected as a text:
"The people who have prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second." If, "at any point God's Word is not put first, the author apologizes."
They'll teach science after the mythology and then only when they have to eh? What a great way to get an education.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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to share.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 248 (382472)
02-04-2007 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by anastasia
02-02-2007 10:35 AM


Re: Homosequality
quote:
I am very proud of the churches who are not bullied by secular standards,
You mean like the Churches that weren't "bullied" by the secular standards regarding protecting pedophiles, wife beaters, and racists?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 188 of 248 (382474)
02-04-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 11:28 AM


Re: What's good for the goose is good for the gander
quote:
Can we have a new rule? If you've been defended by the ACLU (like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly have) you don't get to trash-talk the ACLU.
Can't belive you forgot the big one:
Jerry Falwell was represented by the ACLU, too.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 189 of 248 (382487)
02-04-2007 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by nator
02-04-2007 10:21 PM


Re: Homosequality
Here are some secular standards on pedophilia, as taken from Wiki.
Some media sources have noted that when placed in perspective, the documented cases in the Catholic Church are much lower than incidents of child sexual abuse in the public school system. For the latter, the problem is over three times higher (up to 5% of American teachers, versus estimates of 0.2%[7] and 1.5% of Catholic priests), and only an estimated 1% of sexually abusive teachers have faced the loss of their license since most are merely moved to other districts. The police are rarely notified.[8]
I have no idea what your racism and wife-beating comments refer to. Last I checked the Catholic clergy have no wives to beat.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 190 of 248 (382516)
02-05-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by nator
02-04-2007 10:33 PM


Re: What's good for the goose is good for the gander
Can't belive you forgot the big one:
Jerry Falwell was represented by the ACLU, too.
I didn't know that. Funny how all these guys shit-talk the ACLU, but when the ACLU stands up to defend them, all of a sudden, all those lofty principles go right out the window.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 248 (382573)
02-05-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by anastasia
02-04-2007 11:28 PM


Re: Homosequality
quote:
Some media sources have noted that when placed in perspective, the documented cases in the Catholic Church are much lower than incidents of child sexual abuse in the public school system. For the latter, the problem is over three times higher (up to 5% of American teachers, versus estimates of 0.2%[7] and 1.5% of Catholic priests), and only an estimated 1% of sexually abusive teachers have faced the loss of their license since most are merely moved to other districts. The police are rarely notified.[8]
Yeah. So what?
The last time I checked, "everybody does it" is not a valid excuse for wrongdoing.
Also, the last time I checked, aren't priests and the Catholic Church supposed to be moral leaders, above and beyond the rest of us? Don't they swear an oath or something?
I mean, come on. Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate, ana, let alone not pedophiles! They are also supposed to be men of God, which would seem to me to preclude predatory sexual coersion of little boys.
quote:
I have no idea what your racism and wife-beating comments refer to. Last I checked the Catholic clergy have no wives to beat.
Edited to fix confusing quote attribution!
You wrote:
I am very proud of the churches who are not bullied by secular standards,
And I replied:
You mean like the Churches that weren't "bullied" by the secular standards regarding protecting pedophiles, wife beaters, and racists?
I was making a more general comment about what religions, including Catholocism condone and encourage that are outside of "secular standards".
For example, for quite a long time, abuse of a woman by her husband was not condoned by "secular standards", yet many churches, when abused women came in search of help, were basically told that the abuse was her fault for not pleasing her husband and that she had no choice but to try to make it work.
Another example is the complicity of the Catholic Church/Vatican to Hitler and it's endorsement of Nazi Germany.
The point I was making was that "secular standards" have trended towards the more humane and less persecutorial over the centuries, and the various influential religions have resisted such change and generally have to be forced to stop discriminating or otherwise oppressing certain groups that the rest of the modern world embraced decades before.
Edited by nator, : to fix confusing quotes. Sorry!

'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman
"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 192 of 248 (382585)
02-05-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by anastasia
02-04-2007 11:28 PM


Wiki references
anastasia quotes wiki writes:
Some media sources have noted that when placed in perspective, the documented cases in the Catholic Church are much lower than incidents of child sexual abuse in the public school system. For the latter, the problem is over three times higher (up to 5% of American teachers, versus estimates of 0.2%[7] and 1.5% of Catholic priests), and only an estimated 1% of sexually abusive teachers have faced the loss of their license since most are merely moved to other districts. The police are rarely notified.[8]
For openers, could you provide a link to this material on Wiki? Material on Wikipedia, especially when involving contemporary social controversies, requires close scrutiny given the open public edits allowed there. And I'd like very much to see the context and footnoted references.
For example, I find this sentence particularly curious:
quote:
Some media sources have noted that when placed in perspective, the documented cases in the Catholic Church are much lower than incidents of child sexual abuse in the public school system.
Here the writer contrasts "documented cases in the Catholic Church" vs. "incidents of child sexual abuse in the public school system."
On the one hand, the writer contemplates only "documented cases" in the Catholic Church, and, on the other, refers to "child sexual abuse in the public school system" as though that number were a measure as objective as a ruled line. While this does suggest the writer believes the school systems do a better job of detecting the abuse, since their statistics can be stated without qualifiers, the mixed measures are suspect.
Further, I'd like to know how many of the public school cases involve the seduction of teenage victims vs. the more classic pedophilic cases of assaults on preadolescents. I condemn both--but the seduction of a 17-year-old does differ from the forcible sodomizing of a 7-year-old in a number of ways.
It seems to me that sexual abuse in the public schools is much more likely to be reported: the parents do not have a subordinate religious relationship with the teachers, and most states work hard both to deter and detect such abuse. No doubt some principals, superintendents, and school boards seek to hush up scandal, but I don't see how one could argue their incentives to do so are anywhere as strong as those in the Church, where an accuser must get past the abuser's role as a representative of God, and those to whom the abuse is reported are--as recent history has shown--highly concerned with the interests of the Church they also represent.
So I am very skeptical that Church-related cases of abuse are reported as frequently as those in the public schools. Your excerpt seems to assume this is the case, and I'd like to know what evidence supports the assumption. A link to your excerpt would be a good start.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 11:28 PM anastasia has replied

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 193 of 248 (382652)
02-05-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by nator
02-05-2007 9:42 AM


Re: Homosequality
nator writes:
The last time I checked, "everybody does it" is not a valid excuse for wrongdoing.
Of course not. The point is, the reason why the church scandal is seen as such a big deal, is precisely because people expect better of christianity, and not because the issue itself is unusual.
The Catholic church did not 'endorse Nazi Germany'. It maintianed a neutral stance as opposed to complicity with Communism. Pius XII himself harbored Jews in the Vatican.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by nator, posted 02-05-2007 9:42 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 194 of 248 (382653)
02-05-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Omnivorous
02-05-2007 10:38 AM


Re: Wiki references
Omni, I am not good at providing links. A quick search of 'Catholic pedophilia' should bring you to the Wiki entry.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 195 of 248 (382656)
02-05-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by anastasia
02-05-2007 5:00 PM


Re: Wiki references
Ana, it takes at most 3 whole seconds for you to copy and paste the url. It takes significantly longer than that for the rest of us to hunt down what you referenced. It's not the law that you have to provide a link when you reference or quote something. It is, however, a common courtesy so that the rest of us don't have do the work you've already done.

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