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Author Topic:   Morality without god
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 1186 of 1221 (700784)
06-07-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Faith
06-07-2013 7:47 AM


Re: Ireland
Well I don't know what the Catholic church thinks exactly, I just know that most historians think there were two Patricks. T.F. O'Rahilly's 1942 short lecture "The two Patricks: a lecture on the history of Christianity in fifth-century Ireland"is still a good introduction, there's also "The problem of St. Patrick" by James Carney.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 7:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 8:56 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1187 of 1221 (700786)
06-07-2013 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1186 by Son Goku
06-07-2013 8:40 AM


Re: Ireland
Seems all that can only have been the result of the RCC trying to make Patrick into a Roman Catholic when he wasn't and getting him all mixed up with Palladius who was. Richard Bennett's sources seem to have it sorted out best: Patrick the indigenous early Briton missionary who planted hundreds of churches in Ireland without Roman influence and Palladius coming along some thirty years later with his Roman message that didn't fit in so he had to leave. Only the RCC's insistence on putting their own stamp on the situation could explain all the confusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by Son Goku, posted 06-07-2013 8:40 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2013 9:17 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1190 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 9:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1188 of 1221 (700789)
06-07-2013 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Faith
06-06-2013 11:04 PM


Re: Ireland
"Most modern scholars..." as opposed to Bennett's "The best historians..."
As you will see my posts are sourced. Go to the source. All you have is hearsay. Bennett does not refer to who these scholars are. I have already supplied sources to scholarly papers on the subject. You have supplied nothing. As usual.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 06-06-2013 11:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1189 of 1221 (700790)
06-07-2013 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1187 by Faith
06-07-2013 8:56 AM


Re: Ireland
Richard Bennett's sources seem to have it sorted out best
He seems not to have any sources. If he did he would present them.
Patrick the indigenous early Briton missionary who planted hundreds of churches in Ireland without Roman influence and Palladius coming along some thirty years later with his Roman message that didn't fit in so he had to leave
Find a historian that supports this view and I will look at it. It seems you Bennett is the only person proposing this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 8:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(3)
Message 1190 of 1221 (700796)
06-07-2013 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1187 by Faith
06-07-2013 8:56 AM


Re: Ireland
My first question to you Faith, and actually everyone in the thread, is what on Earth this tangent has to do with the idea of a morality existing without the presence of the divine?
Now, onto what you are arguing about, even though it is not on topic.
Faith writes:
Seems all that can only have been the result of the RCC trying to make Patrick into a Roman Catholic when he wasn't and getting him all mixed up with Palladius who was.
Well, from what I can find, which includes information from St. Patrick's writings, it appears that he was raised in a Roman Catholic family after being born in 385. According to his writings, Confessions of St. Patrick,
St. Patrick writes:
I, Patrick, the sinner, am the most rustic and the least of all the faithful . . . had for my father Calpornius, a deacon, a son of Potitus, a priest, who belonged to the village of Bannavem Taberniae. . . .
While no town named Bannavem Taberniae has been located to this day, it is important to remember that Rome did not begin to withdraw from Briton until after Patrick was born, meaning he was raised in a Roman Province. Now, it is also important to remember that in the early years of the RCC, there was not a ban on the clergy being married. According to Wikipedia,
Wiki writes:
In the earliest years of the church, the clergy were mainly married men: 1 Timothy 3:2 includes among the qualifications for the office of overseer or bishop: "an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded ..."
So, in Patrick's own writings, there is a reference to his father, a Deacon, and to his grandfather, a Priest. That is right, a Deacon and a Priest, two positions that still exist within the Catholic community to this day.
Now, about the name of Patrick, which was not this man's given name, we find out how he received the name though. James Akin writes,
Akin writes:
His birth name was, reportedly, Maewyn, and the Latin name Patercius (Gaelicized to "Patrick" by the Irish) was given to him by Pope Celestine just before his mission to Ireland, as a token of the fruitfulness of his future mission, which would make him the pater civium (father of the people) of the Irish race.
So, how could a man be given a name by Celestine, who had nothing to do with the fact that he was preaching the Gospel to the Irish people?
Now, as an ex-Catholic there is one statement I strongly see Patrick's Catholicism coming out and that is a comment in his confessions that discusses what can only be seen as the classic Catholic Guilt. Patrick comes out later in life discussing his wilder youthful days and states,
Patrick writes:
as youths he and his companions "turned away from God, and did not keep his commandments, and did not obey our priests, who used to remind us of our salvation
Patrick was originally sent to Ireland to actually assist Palladius, which goes a long way toward explaining how these two individuals got combined throughout history into a single individual. St. Palladius was sent to Ireland in the year 430 to begin to preach to the Irish. St. Patrick was sent there in 432 for assistance. Before he left, he had to....you know become a priest first and this was not done, as you think, in Ireland or Briton. Rather,
Akin writes:
To prepare, he traveled to France and spent around two decades as a monkstudying, praying, and practicing penance. He was ordained to the priesthood, and in 432 was sent to Ireland to serve St. Palladius, who had been consecrated bishop and sent to Ireland by Pope Celestine.
After Palladius died during a trip to preach in Scotland to the Picts, Patrick would don the mantle of Bishop of Ireland as conferred upon him by St. Germanus, who was the Papal representative of the Irish mission.
One other piece of evidence is the words spoken about him by his assistant bishop, St. Sechnall
St. Sechnall writes:
Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [St. Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not
So, a comparison to Peter as the rock of the church and Patrick as the rock of the Irish church. This statement would be incoherent if Patrick was not a follower of the same faith that claims Peter was made the rock upon which Jesus founded his church.
Finally, it seems that James Akin does a great job of summing up just how Catholic St. Patrick is with one sweeping statement of the things that Patrick believed in and some things that occurred during his lifetime.
He states this in response to individuals like you Faith, attempting to usurp Patrick for your faith, while at the same time robbing the deceased of his.
Akin writes:
This is an impossible task, as Patrick was a Latin-speaking Roman noble, grandson of a Catholic priest, son of a minor official of the Roman empire, who had repeated private revelations, practiced penance, spent two decades as a monk, was ordained a priest and sent to serve on the papal mission to Ireland, was then ordained bishop by a papal representative, and had his fidelity to Catholic teaching specially confirmed by Pope Leo the Great (of whom the fathers of the Council of Chalcedon cried "Peter has spoken through Leo!"). He described himself as a Catholic, and a list of canons he drew up for the Irish church orders that any dispute not resolved on a local level was to be forwarded to Rome for decision.
Source
Therefore, whether you want it or not...St. Patrick = Catholic
Of course, your response will simply be that my source is biased because it comes from a Catholic and you will dig your heels in and refuse to change your mind. In fact, the only references I can find denying Patrick's Catholicism come from websites and individuals that are anti-Catholic, so it would appear that they have more reason to quote mine to get their way.
Besides, what damage do you think might be done to the Catholic church with the removal of St. Patrick as a Saint? I will tell you what damage, absolutely none...there was no issues when the Catholic Church sent St. Christopher packing and removed his sainthood.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 8:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:00 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1191 of 1221 (700827)
06-07-2013 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1190 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 9:42 AM


Re: Ireland
You didn't say anything I didn't already know about Patrick's names,* family etc. Being born in the Roman Empire did not make him a Roman Catholic, and yes, I believe the sources I'm familiar with and reject yours. I personally don't care whether he was RCC or not, but I've heard from too many sources that he was a Christian I could appreciate instead and that he doesn't deserve what the RCC did to him.
However, you are right this is off topic.
* ABE Correction: Not HIS names but his family's Roman names. It WAS the Roman Empire and he knew Latin. But there is no mention of Pope anybody in any of his histories. Or priests either. The excuse to insert Pope Celestine seems to be based only on the Roman names, but assuming the histories I've been aware of are the true ones the excuse is really only that the RCC wants to own Patrick and to own Ireland.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1190 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 9:42 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 9:28 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1192 of 1221 (700858)
06-08-2013 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1191 by Faith
06-07-2013 5:00 PM


Re: Ireland
but assuming the histories I've been aware of
You have not presented any histories that you are aware. People just spouting crap is not a history. Neither you, nor your fave revisionist, Bennett, have presented any sources to back any claim.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 3:40 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1193 of 1221 (700875)
06-08-2013 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1192 by Theodoric
06-08-2013 9:28 AM


Re: Ireland
I'm aware of Bennett's talk which I linked, in which he mentions three historians as his sources, the book I posted on at my blog and the two writings by Patrick himself which are the only trustworthy sources. I know you prefer the RCC versions which I consider untrustworthy.
Funny you call Bennett a revisionist, when he's in the position Protestants in general are up against in dealing with the history of this sort of thing, having to untangle all the RCC lies and forgeries from the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 9:28 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 6:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1194 of 1221 (700879)
06-08-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by Faith
06-08-2013 3:40 PM


Re: Ireland
in which he mentions three historians as his sources
Then tell me his sources. I am not going to listen to his crap. Tell me the historians and I will review their work.
Funny you call Bennett a revisionist, when he's in the position Protestants in general are up against in dealing with the history of this sort of thing, having to untangle all the RCC lies and forgeries from the truth.
Delusions and paranoia are signs of some deep issues. Just because he is a protestant does not make everything he claims true or real.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 3:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 8:10 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1195 of 1221 (700892)
06-08-2013 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Theodoric
06-08-2013 6:27 PM


Re: Ireland
Somewhere back on this thread I did list the historians Bennett gave but the sound quality is bad enough I don't know whether I heard right and he didn't give enough information to look them up -- something like Wylie and Ware and one other.
Bennett is clearly an honest man. As for the lies and forgeries of the RCC there is a ton of information out there, most of it in old books since the newer histories aren't trustworthy. I have a long list of online books at my Catholicism blog on the right margin, most of which give information about all this. I've just started making myself an index of the information in those books so I can have it available but I've only just started.
Theodoric, I'm being honest about all this, I'm sorry I keep rubbing you the wrong way but I'm giving true information to the best of my ability. When it comes to the RCC information I know this stuff can come as a shock to Catholics and even ex-Catholics. Well, it came as a shock to me too when I first got into it.
Sorry I don't have more on Patrick. I believe the book I reviewed and I believe Bennett.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 6:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1196 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 10:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 1196 of 1221 (700897)
06-08-2013 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1195 by Faith
06-08-2013 8:10 PM


Re: Ireland
In other words you and he have no sources. Typical and nor surprising. You will believe anything that is anti-catholic.
I am an atheist , so I don't care on religious grounds, but as I have some training in history and archival science I get incensed when people pervert history in order to back their views.
Until you and Bennett can provide actual sources and actual historians that support this crap it is just crap.
I have a long list of online books
Any of them by actual historians?
at my Catholicism blog
Trust me. I ain't ever going to go there.
Theodoric, I'm being honest about all this
Your hate colors your ability to see things rationally.
I believe the book I reviewed and I believe Bennett.
Why? Because it confirms your worldview?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1195 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 8:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 9:02 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1197 of 1221 (700946)
06-09-2013 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1196 by Theodoric
06-08-2013 10:25 PM


Re: Ireland
Surely it's obvious that the same could be said about your position, that you believe it because it confirms your worldview. And not being willing to check out the list of books at my blog suggests strongly that is probably the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2013 10:25 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1198 by Theodoric, posted 06-09-2013 9:24 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1199 by Theodoric, posted 06-10-2013 11:31 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1198 of 1221 (700951)
06-09-2013 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
06-09-2013 9:02 PM


Re: Ireland
Faith provide me with historians names that support your view. I have provided two scholarly works saying that you and Bennett are full of shit. I know this is hard for you to believe but your blog has no authority.
Give me names of historians and their works. I am very willing to prevent dissenting views. There is some historical research in which
I very much taken a dissenting view. This has not been driven by any world view, but solely by the evidence.
No I will not go to your blog. If you want to be taken seriously here, present your support here.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 9:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1199 of 1221 (700986)
06-10-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
06-09-2013 9:02 PM


Re: Ireland
Ok curiosity got the best to me and I went to your blog where you claimed there were books listed that supported your arguments about St. Patrick.
Faith it isn't good to lie. There are no books about Patrick at all on your website.
But lets look at the books and see if any are even written by historians.
First
RULERS OF EVIL, F Tupper Saussy
Not a historian but an artist and musician.
Next
Washington in the Lap of Rome, J D Fulton
Not much about this guy
quote:
The Rev. Dr. Justln Dewey Fulton, for many years prominent as a Baptist minister in Brooklyn, and who attracted great attention by his vehement crusade against the Roman Catholic Church, died at his home here to-day of paralysis.
More
Self published. 1888
Next
Ok this is getting tiring
Paul Serup (Who Killed Lincoln)
Not a historian. He is an independent researcher". Also, the book is self-published.
John Dowling History of Romanism
Published 1871
Not a historian.
Alright I have to stop this is too painful.
Nothing about Patrick, nothing by any historian.
I am dumber for even looking at this sensationalistic garbage.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 9:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by jar, posted 06-10-2013 11:54 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 5:27 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 1204 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 10:52 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1200 of 1221 (700989)
06-10-2013 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by Theodoric
06-10-2013 11:31 AM


Re: Ireland
I am dumber for even looking at this sensationalistic garbage.
You could be dumber; you might use crap like that as support for your position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by Theodoric, posted 06-10-2013 11:31 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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