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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 3106 of 3189 (896811)
08-23-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3101 by Dredge
08-22-2022 10:22 PM


Re: Troll Alert
Dredge writes:
Do you know how a tape-measure works?
My statement was, "Since you're almost as smart as a five-year-old, show us your "proof". Message 3077
You claimed in Message 3063 that "Even a five year-old child could prove that I'm taller than an ant ... but apparently, science can't." The onus is on you to back up your claim, whether I know anything about tape measures or not.
Go ahead, show us your "proof".

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3101 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:22 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3107 of 3189 (896813)
08-23-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3099 by Dredge
08-22-2022 10:16 PM


Dredge writes:
Why can't science prove that I'm taller than an ant?
Because science doesn't deal in proof any more than brain surgery deals in aviation.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3099 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:16 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3108 of 3189 (896822)
08-23-2022 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3099 by Dredge
08-22-2022 10:16 PM


Interesting Forbes Article
Here is an article you might like:
Scientific Proof Is A Myth
quote:
You've heard of our greatest scientific theories: the theory of evolution, the Big Bang theory, the theory of gravity. You've also heard of the concept of a proof, and the claims that certain pieces of evidence prove the validities of these theories. Fossils, genetic inheritance, and DNA prove the theory of evolution. The Hubble expansion of the Universe, the evolution of stars, galaxies, and heavy elements, and the existence of the cosmic microwave background prove the Big Bang theory. And falling objects, GPS clocks, planetary motion, and the deflection of starlight prove the theory of gravity.
Except that's a complete lie. While they provide very strong evidence for those theories, they aren't proof. In fact, when it comes to science, proving anything is an impossibility.
Reality is a complicated place. All we have to guide us, from an empirical point of view, are the quantities we can measure and observe. Even at that, those quantities are only as good as the tools and equipment we use to make those observations and measurements. Distances and sizes are only as good as the measuring sticks you have access to; brightness measurements are only as good as your ability to count and quantify photons; even time itself is only known as well as the clock you have to measure its passage. No matter how good our measurements and observations are, there's a limit to how good they are.
We also can't observe or measure everything. Even if the Universe weren't subject to the fundamental quantum rules that govern it, along with all its inherent uncertainty, it wouldn't be possible to measure every state of every particle under every condition all the time. At some point, we have to extrapolate. This is incredibly powerful and incredibly useful, but it's also incredibly limiting.
The curvature of space means that clocks that are deeper into a gravitational well -- and hence, in... [+] more severely curved space -- run at a different rate than ones in a shallower, less-curved portion of space. While our predictions for GPS satellites work extraordinarily well, even this cannot 'prove' that General Relativity is correct.
In order to come up with a model capable of predicting what will happen under a variety of conditions, we need to understand a few things.
What we're capable of measuring, and to what precision.
What's been measured thus far, under specific initial conditions.
What laws hold for these phenomena, i.e., what observed relationships exist between specific quantities.
And what the limits are for the things we presently know.
If you understand these things, you have the right ingredients to formulate a scientific theory: a framework for explaining what we already know happens as well as predicting what will happen under new, untested circumstances.
If you look farther and farther away, you also look farther and farther into the past. The farthest... [+] we can see back in time is 13.8 billion years: our estimate for the age of the Universe. It's the extrapolation back to the earliest times that led to the idea of the Big Bang. While everything we observe is consistent with the Big Bang framework, it's not something that can ever be proven.
Our best theories, like the aforementioned theory of evolution, the Big Bang theory, and Einstein's General Relativity, cover all of these bases. They have an underlying quantitative framework, enabling us to predict what will happen under a variety of situations, and to then go out and test those predictions empirically. So far, these theories have demonstrated themselves to be eminently valid. Where their predictions can be described by mathematical expressions, we can tell not only what should happen, but by how much. For these theories in particular, among many others, measurements and observations that have been performed to test these theories have been supremely successful.
But as validating as that is — and as powerful as it is to falsify alternatives — it's completely impossible to prove anything in science.
In science, even mathematical proofs are less than 100% certain, as it's not 100% certain that the mathematical rules apply to your physical system.
It isn't simply that galaxies are moving away from us that causes a redshift, but rather that the... [+] Larry McNish of RASC Calgary Center
It's a leap of faith to assume that it will, and while these are often good leaps of faith, you cannot prove that these leaps are always valid. If the laws of nature change over time, or behave differently under different conditions, or in different directions or locations, or aren't applicable to the system you're dealing with, your predictions will be wrong. And that's why everything we do in science, no matter how well it gets tested, is always preliminary.
Even in theoretical physics, the most mathematical of all the sciences, our "proofs" aren't on entirely solid ground. If the assumptions we make about the underlying physical theory (or its mathematical structure) no longer apply — if we step outside the theory's range of validity — we'll "prove" something that turns out not to be true. If someone tells you a scientific theory has been proven, you should ask what they mean by that. Normally, they mean "they've convinced themselves that this thing is true," or they have overwhelming evidence that a specific idea is valid over a specific range. But nothing in science can ever truly be proven. It's always subject to revision.
In the standard model, the neutron's electric dipole moment is predicted to be a factor of ten... [+] billion larger than our observational limits show. The only explanation is that somehow, something beyond the Standard Model is protecting this CP symmetry. We can demonstrate a lot of things in science, but proving that CP is conserved in the strong interactions can never be done.
This doesn't mean it's impossible to know anything at all. To the contrary, in many ways, scientific knowledge is the most "real" knowledge that we can possibly gain about the world. But in science, nothing is ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As Einstein himself once said:
The scientific theorist is not to be envied. For Nature, or more precisely experiment, is an inexorable and not very friendly judge of his work. It never says "Yes" to a theory. In the most favorable cases it says "Maybe," and in the great majority of cases simply "No." If an experiment agrees with a theory it means for the latter "Maybe," and if it does not agree it means "No." Probably every theory will someday experience its "No"—most theories, soon after conception.
So don't try to prove things; try to convince yourself. And be your own harshest critic and your own greatest skeptic. Every scientific theory will someday fail, and when it does, that will herald a new era of scientific inquiry and discovery. And of all the scientific theories we've ever come up with, the best ones succeed for the longest amounts of time and over the greatest ranges possible. In some sense, it's better than a proof: it's the most correct description of the physical world humanity has ever imagined.
Ethan Siegel
I am a Ph.D. astrophysicist, author, and science communicator, who professes physics and astronomy at various colleges. I have won numerous awards for science writing...


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3099 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:16 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3109 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 7:04 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3109 of 3189 (896823)
08-23-2022 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3108 by Phat
08-23-2022 6:42 PM


Re: Interesting Forbes Article
And, Phat, you read this and agree with it, yes?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3108 by Phat, posted 08-23-2022 6:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3112 by Phat, posted 08-23-2022 7:54 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3110 of 3189 (896824)
08-23-2022 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3099 by Dredge
08-22-2022 10:16 PM


Why can't science prove that I'm taller than an ant?
What would be proof? We can show this is a demonstrable fact. Is that not enough?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3099 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:16 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3113 by Dredge, posted 08-23-2022 8:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3111 of 3189 (896825)
08-23-2022 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3103 by Dredge
08-22-2022 11:01 PM


"In Science We Trust"
"In Science We Trust"
A demonstrable fact is a fact. It has no choice. I’m not sure what else could be added. “Fact” is the pinnacle of reality. The more we have, the more of reality we understand. Like evolution. We have so many 100s of millions of facts (little pieces of reality) that we can see the patterns in detail and categorize the lot into comprehensive and verified theories of what happened, when and how.
And don’t get me started on physics. I’m thinking it was Matt O’Dowd who said that physics makes us wizards capable of predicting the future and manipulating the foundations of reality. Gotta have more respect for wizards. They do some other real wizard stuff too like look into the past and watch whales evolve.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3103 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 11:01 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3115 by Dredge, posted 08-23-2022 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3112 of 3189 (896826)
08-23-2022 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3109 by AZPaul3
08-23-2022 7:04 PM


Re: Interesting Forbes Article
yes. (And don't go mentioning God.) I've no need to prove Him anyway. He proves Himself to me when needed. My biggest challenge is to listen.
AZ writes:
And don’t get me started on physics. I’m thinking it was Matt O’Dowd who said that physics makes us wizards capable of predicting the future and manipulating the foundations of reality. Gotta have more respect for wizards. They do some other real wizard stuff too like look into the past and watch whales evolve.
Some people rather like the idea of being Wizards. Highly evolved animals and their dreams!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3109 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 7:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3117 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 8:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3113 of 3189 (896827)
08-23-2022 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3110 by AZPaul3
08-23-2022 7:07 PM


AZPail3 writes:
What would be proof? We can show this is a demonstrable fact. Is that not enough?
Is there a difference between "demonstrable fact" and "proof"?
If so, what is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3110 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 7:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3114 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 8:28 PM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3114 of 3189 (896828)
08-23-2022 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3113 by Dredge
08-23-2022 8:13 PM


Is there a difference between "demonstrable fact" and "proof"?
Altar Boy, that was MY question to you. Is there a difference in your mind?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3113 by Dredge, posted 08-23-2022 8:13 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3116 by Dredge, posted 08-23-2022 8:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3115 of 3189 (896829)
08-23-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3111 by AZPaul3
08-23-2022 7:46 PM


Re: "In Science We Trust"
Dredge writes:
Science We Trust"
AZPaul3 writes:
A demonstrable fact is a fact. It has no choice. I’m not sure what else could be added. “Fact” is the pinnacle of reality. The more we have, the more of reality we understand.
If science can't prove anything, it can't prove that anything is a fact; nor can science prove anything about reality.
Like evolution.
If science can't prove anything, it can't prove anything about evolution.
We have so many 100s of millions of facts (little pieces of reality) that we can see the patterns in detail and categorize the lot into comprehensive and verified theories of what happened, when and how.
What a pity no theories about how evolution produced the history observed in the fossil record can be verified.
It can't even be verified that life's history is one of a contiguous biological process.
But I'm digressing from the thread, so enuf on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3111 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 7:46 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3116 of 3189 (896830)
08-23-2022 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3114 by AZPaul3
08-23-2022 8:28 PM


I can't see any difference between "demonstrable fact" and "proof".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3114 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 8:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3118 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 8:40 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3117 of 3189 (896831)
08-23-2022 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3112 by Phat
08-23-2022 7:54 PM


Re: Interesting Forbes Article
Some people rather like the idea of being Wizards. Highly evolved animals and their dreams!
Yes, we like that. Just like those who like the idea of being acolytes to a bloody monster.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3112 by Phat, posted 08-23-2022 7:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3119 by Phat, posted 08-24-2022 6:18 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3118 of 3189 (896832)
08-23-2022 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3116 by Dredge
08-23-2022 8:35 PM


Then when the facts show you reality why do you deny it as "not proof"? The demonstrable facts which make the theory of evolution a reality must be the proof you are looking for.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3116 by Dredge, posted 08-23-2022 8:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3119 of 3189 (896844)
08-24-2022 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3117 by AZPaul3
08-23-2022 8:35 PM


Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
Some people rather like the idea of being Wizards. Highly evolved animals and their dreams!
AZPaul3 writes:
Yes, we like that. Just like those who like the idea of being acolytes to a bloody monster.
Honestly I can't figure out what monster you are talking about...though organized religion historically could be a valid culprit. Soldiers coming home from Viet Nam used to be labeled as "baby killers" which had some truth to it--though war, in general, is hell by definition. And in that case, the "monster" in question was both the United States and the spread of global Communism in general. Don't kid yourself...they would have killed our babies too if they had a longer reach!
I did look up your boy Matt O Dowd and watched a few episodes of PBS Space Time. It was fascinating and highly inconclusive, as any good science show should be!
Quantum physics is as close to Majik as any human mortal will ever get.

Edited by Phat, .

Edited by Phat, : changed sub title


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3117 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2022 8:35 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3120 by ringo, posted 08-24-2022 12:15 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 3120 of 3189 (896857)
08-24-2022 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3119 by Phat
08-24-2022 6:18 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
Honestly I can't figure out what monster you are talking about...
You're being dishonest. You know damn well what monster he's talking about - the one who threatens to roast us in Hell, the one who created Hell in the first place, the one who lets children die horrible deaths.
Phat writes:
... war, in general, is hell by definition.
No it isn't. War has been figuratively compared to Hell. You should probably stop using the phrase "by definition" entirely.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3119 by Phat, posted 08-24-2022 6:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3121 by Phat, posted 08-24-2022 2:20 PM ringo has replied

  
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