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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3061 of 3207 (896681)
08-16-2022 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3058 by Phat
08-16-2022 6:38 PM


Re: Troll Alert
Because he is a troll and that is all he will ever be.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3058 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 6:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3062 of 3207 (896682)
08-16-2022 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3052 by Parasomnium
08-16-2022 2:25 PM


Here & Now
Parasomnium writes:
That's why I put my money on the here and now, which is the only where and when I can do something about making my life, and that of others, worth living.
Its like that old saying:
The Past Is History
The Future Is A Mystery
So Focus On The Present.
(The present is a gift)
Logically, if I (we, you) focus on the present, the future takes care of itself...no matter what happens.

Edited by Phat, : fixed broken quote


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3052 by Parasomnium, posted 08-16-2022 2:25 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3076 by ringo, posted 08-17-2022 11:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3063 of 3207 (896683)
08-16-2022 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3058 by Phat
08-16-2022 6:38 PM


Re: Troll Alert
Even a five year-old child could prove that I'm taller than an ant ... but apparently, science can't. Wtf ... !!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3058 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 6:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3064 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 7:48 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 3077 by ringo, posted 08-17-2022 11:50 AM Dredge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 3064 of 3207 (896684)
08-16-2022 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3063 by Dredge
08-16-2022 7:45 PM


Re: Troll Alert
One would think that if a five-year-old could indeed "prove" something, they would be using science for perhaps the first time in their young lives....through reasoning.
Perhaps their teacher would remind them that they proved nothing. They merely demonstrated it. Keep in mind what the peanut gallery has taught us about "proofs".

Edited by Phat, : added


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3063 by Dredge, posted 08-16-2022 7:45 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3098 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3065 of 3207 (896685)
08-16-2022 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3060 by Theodoric
08-16-2022 7:41 PM


Re: Soul Man
Theodoric writes:
How about backing this with some sort of evidence?
The thought occurred to me so I did a quick search in order to find out what others thought of my assertion.
I ended up at this page: What Makes Us Human And Separates Us from Animals?
I used the first quote and browsed the article quickly (admittedly)
but it seemed to be satisfactory evidence for my claim. Do you agree?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3060 by Theodoric, posted 08-16-2022 7:41 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3066 by Percy, posted 08-16-2022 8:51 PM Phat has replied
 Message 3067 by Theodoric, posted 08-16-2022 9:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 3066 of 3207 (896691)
08-16-2022 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3065 by Phat
08-16-2022 7:57 PM


Re: Soul Man
You're not going to make an argument? You're just going to point Theodoric at a webpage that you only browsed but figured it was "satisfactory evidence for my claim"? Seriously?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3065 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 7:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3068 by Phat, posted 08-17-2022 12:05 AM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3067 of 3207 (896692)
08-16-2022 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3065 by Phat
08-16-2022 7:57 PM


Re: Soul Man
Nope.
Yet, you wonder why I think you are a troll.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3065 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 7:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3068 of 3207 (896700)
08-17-2022 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 3066 by Percy
08-16-2022 8:51 PM


Re: Soul Man
You're not going to make an argument?
In order to do that, I would have to learn the science behind the article. I can peruse something and learn the gist of what is being presented, but I don't have time to learn the subject any more than any of you take the time to learn what believers believe or why they so adamantly defend it. In order for me to learn the science, I would have to essentially take a class. In order for you to understand belief, you would literally have to suspend your intuitive demands for evidence and simply declare that you trust God (should He exist). Neither of us want to get so far out of our comfort zones.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3066 by Percy, posted 08-16-2022 8:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3071 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2022 10:03 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3073 by Percy, posted 08-17-2022 10:31 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3078 by ringo, posted 08-17-2022 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 3069 of 3207 (896702)
08-17-2022 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 3055 by Phat
08-16-2022 6:24 PM


Re: Omnichron?
Phat writes:
Where this omnibenevolent thing came from I have no clue.
Omnipresence is a bit of a parochial quality, compared to omnipotence and omniscience. If an entity possesses those last two qualities, omnipresence is a bit superfluous: if you can do anything and know everything, why would you need to be everywhere?
Anyway, omnibenevolence is a quality that is often mentioned when people consider the problem of evil. That's where the logical conflict starts.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3055 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 6:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3070 by Phat, posted 08-17-2022 4:52 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3070 of 3207 (896703)
08-17-2022 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3069 by Parasomnium
08-17-2022 1:34 AM


Re: Omnichron?
if you can do anything and know everything, why would you need to be everywhere?
My first thought was that the Holy Spirit is a bit like having cellphone service. You want to be sure that you can connect whereever you happen to be. That being said, I agree that the first two cover the area quite well.
Now about Omnibenevolence.
Wiki writes:
Omnibenevolence (from Latin omni- meaning "all", bene- meaning "good" and volens meaning "willing") is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "unlimited or infinite benevolence". Some philosophers[citation needed] have argued that it is impossible, or at least improbable, for a deity to exhibit such a property alongside omniscience and omnipotence, as a result of the problem of evil. However, some philosophers, such as Alvin Plantinga, argue the plausibility of co-existence.
Many critics and social activists insist that a God worthy of any homage, acknowledgment, or worship *must be* Onibenevolent.
The counter-argument is that God initially allowed (had to allow) evil to exist for two reasons.
1) Humans needed exposure to the spirit of evil in order to revile against it, learn to fight it in ourselves and to finally become benevolent like God.
2) Satan(formerly Lucifer) had to be allowed an opportunity to rebel and reject God's authority in order to fulfill the freewill doctrine. Humans are given a choice and similar opportunities.
Tange hates this theory and asks why God couldn't have dealt with evil by simply not creating/allowing it or by erasing it on our behalf. I don't have an answer except to suggest that if not only evil but God Himself was eliminated from the equation the problem realistically wouldn't go away.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3069 by Parasomnium, posted 08-17-2022 1:34 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3072 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2022 10:05 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3088 by Parasomnium, posted 08-17-2022 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3071 of 3207 (896705)
08-17-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3068 by Phat
08-17-2022 12:05 AM


Re: Soul Man
So you don't even understand that the part you quoted does not support your argument. It just sounded good enough.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3068 by Phat, posted 08-17-2022 12:05 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3072 of 3207 (896706)
08-17-2022 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 3070 by Phat
08-17-2022 4:52 AM


Re: Omnichron?
My first thought was that the Holy Spirit is a bit like having cellphone service.
Wow!
Gonna let this drivel go. Not worth going down the rabbit hole.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3070 by Phat, posted 08-17-2022 4:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 3073 of 3207 (896708)
08-17-2022 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 3068 by Phat
08-17-2022 12:05 AM


Re: Soul Man
Phat writes:
You're not going to make an argument?
In order to do that, I would have to learn the science behind the article.
You cannot use ignorance as an excuse for ignoring Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
That rule is there to prevent debate via link. You have to put arguments in your own words to demonstrate that you do understand the topic, and that you're not just sending people off to view links or videos that you yourself don't understand and that might not even make sense.
So please stop violating this guideline. I keep having to quote Witgenstein, whom I'll paraphrase this time: "If you don't know the subject, don't say anything."
Or at least confine yourself to asking questions.
I can peruse something and learn the gist of what is being presented,...
You *should* be able to do this, but clearly you can't.
...but I don't have time to learn the subject...
Again, Witgenstein.
...any more than any of you take the time to learn what believers believe or why they so adamantly defend it.
It's disappointing seeing you constantly mischaracterizing the views of those you're debating with. Many people have taken a great deal of time with you understanding what you believe and then explaining to you why it doesn't align with your book. Just because you cannot articulate why your beliefs actually do reconcile with your book doesn't mean you can cast unsupported allegations against others. I think if you gave it some examination you'd agree that it's unChristian anyway.
In order for me to learn the science, I would have to essentially take a class.
Whatever it takes to intelligently discuss something then that's what you'll have to do. Otherwise, Witgenstein.
You're much more amenable to emotion than knowledge. That's why you've become so enamored of YouTube videos full of emotional appeals. That they're full of emotion rather than information is why you can't explain their positions. You've clearly embraced assertions like, "Fiat money is bad and will destroy us," but you can't explain why, and the reason you can't explain why is because the people you're listening to can't explain why, either. They can say a lot of things that are emotionally appealing, and that's about it. Financial topics are not your strong point, yet you make emphatic pronouncements about them anyway, then fail to understand any of the explanations why what you just said was wrong.
Note that I'm not saying we're always right. I'm saying that whether our explanations are right or wrong, you simply don't understand them and can't engage in a discussion about them. You quickly devolve into citing YouTube videos. Or in this case, a link, which is just as bad.
It doesn't matter what you refer someone to, whether it's a webpage or a PDF or a magazine article or a research paper or a video. If you can't put it in your own words then you shouldn't argue it. Putting it in your own words demonstrates to people that you understand it. When you can't put it in your own words it usually means you don't understand it but merely found it emotionally appealing. This makes you believe that if others would just watch it they'd find it appealing, too, but your links or vidoes are just employing the strategies of used car salesmen, and by middle adulthood most people find them transparently obvious and fallacious.
In order for you to understand belief, you would literally have to suspend your intuitive demands for evidence and simply declare that you trust God (should He exist). Neither of us want to get so far out of our comfort zones.
I think many here understand belief very well because we see its contradictions and debilitating effects displayed here by yourself, Dredge, Greatest I am, marc9000, ICANT, mike the wiz, etc. Common threads among you are unfamiliarity with science, an inability to connect evidence to conclusions, and an insistence on repeatedly going over the same ground. For an example of this last one, this isn't the first time I've had to respond to you about this.
There's an interesting correlation that's important here. Confidence and intelligence/knowledge are inversely proportional. Stated simply, the less one knows, the greater one's confidence. That you are confident enough to discuss so many things you don't understand should give you pause.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3068 by Phat, posted 08-17-2022 12:05 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3079 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2022 12:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 3074 of 3207 (896710)
08-17-2022 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3057 by Dredge
08-16-2022 6:32 PM


Dredge writes:
So science can't even prove that I'm taller than an ant. Wow ... science is so dumb!
A brain surgeon can't fly an F-15. Doesn't mean he's dumb.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3057 by Dredge, posted 08-16-2022 6:32 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3099 by Dredge, posted 08-22-2022 10:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 3075 of 3207 (896711)
08-17-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 3056 by Phat
08-16-2022 6:30 PM


Re: Soul Man
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Animals have all of that.
No, no they don't.
The differences between humans and other species are a matter of degree. We may have "more brain power" than other species but that doen't mean we have unique brain functions.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3056 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 6:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
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