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Author
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Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: The Man In The Book
So you are saying that its highly illogical and unbelievable that there is a higher power, Creator of all seen and unseen. And I am assuming that your "standard" of evidence excludes the personal experience and perspective of many others.
...absolutely no evidence that the supernatural is anything but imagination. Grow up
Yes, we see how well grown-ups run the world! 
Luke 18:15-17 writes: Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."NKJV And I understand that to be childlike does not mean being childish. Is your imagination limited by science?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: The Man In The Book
Theodoric writes: You do realize that Christians run most of the world you complain about. As far as we know, at least. Would it be any different (better or worse) If everyone in political office or position of authority(J.Powell, for instance) were avowed atheists? Can we even judge whether or not a candidate or leader...despite publically saying they are Christian (of course) really be atheist/agnostic at heart? Putin is likely an atheist, as is Xi Jinping.
Would they be any better if they claimed to be Christians? Are Western Christian leaders any worse for not being atheists?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2917 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2022 7:29 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2922 by nwr, posted 08-09-2022 11:21 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2931 by Percy, posted 08-10-2022 8:29 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2921 of 3207 (896451)
08-09-2022 10:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 2918 by AZPaul3
08-09-2022 7:52 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
AZ writes: science limits the range of actions that could have resulted in the present and it further limits the range of actions open to the future. So does reality. Whats the point?
Imagination is unlimited in the fictional monsters it can create past and future.
Imagination (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc, etc) is also limited in the fictional future worlds it can create.
So while imagination can be good for science and education and entertainment it is not so good for us in religious nutcases dead set on ruling society. The same could be said for atheist "nutcases" like Putin who have a vision for the future.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2918 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2022 7:52 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2925 by AZPaul3, posted 08-10-2022 12:17 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2938 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 12:04 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: The Man In The Book
Tanypteryx writes: If there were any higher powers that wanted us to know they exist, it would be easy to give us absolute evidence. It would also be easy to remain invisible until and unless we wanted to know about them(Him,Her,It) or freely choose to dismiss such a possible concept. IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of evidence or lack thereof. If not, no harm no foul.
Personal experience and perspective of multitudes are completely intangible.
quote
intangible
Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
Incapable of being realized or defined.
Incorporeal.
On the contrary, a perspective of a multitude (no matter the number) is quite tangible if it causes mass behavior.
No one thinks you can run the world, no one is talking about running the world. If *you* (anyone) can't run the world, what makes you think that *we* can? (though I suppose that the jury is still out, pending future results)
For the sake of your own life, face reality and be responsible for yourself. If a GOD existed, would we say the same thing to Him? Butt out and do your own thing? Why would we rebel against a *human* Who chose to be responsible for *ALL* of us?
I know the difference between imagination and reality. Thats because you have grown up. A child has no problem with both extremes existing at the same time and place. |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2924 of 3207 (896454)
08-09-2022 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 2922 by nwr
08-09-2022 11:21 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
From the source you presented:
Wiki writes: When asked in 2007 whether he believes in God, he responded: "There are things I believe, which should not in my position, at least, be shared with the public at large for everybody's consumption because that would look like self-advertising or a political striptease." Putin's rumored confessor is Russian Orthodox Bishop Tikhon Shevkunov. The sincerity of his Christianity has been rejected by his former advisor Sergei Pugachev.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2922 by nwr, posted 08-09-2022 11:21 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2927 of 3207 (896458)
08-10-2022 3:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 2926 by Tangle
08-10-2022 3:05 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Perhaps He knew that we (some of us) would honestly criticize and even despise Him for it. Perhaps he is waiting for us to get over it and keep evolving.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2926 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2022 3:05 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2928 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2022 3:25 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2929 of 3207 (896460)
08-10-2022 3:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 2928 by Tangle
08-10-2022 3:25 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Surely you can see the problem here? We've been to the moon.
John 1:18 NKJV writes: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. And yet He has given you the ability to deny Him, cheesy though that may sound. Stile likely gets a pass due to his honesty within this thread. What's your excuse? The Son is a lot more than bells and smells and Priests playing dress-up. You missed out on a lot being raised Catholic.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2928 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2022 3:25 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2930 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2022 4:23 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2939 of 3207 (896475)
08-10-2022 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 2935 by ringo
08-10-2022 11:51 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
ringo writes: That's nonsense. Belief is the opposite of knowledge. You can't know until you stop believing nonsense.
*Phat blows dust off of both the dictionary and the Bible* Au Contraire. Ignorance is the opposite of knowledge, not belief. And nonsense is subjective. Many things in life don't make sense. Such as how, if Putin actually followed Orthodoxy, he would approve of the sins of his army.
Vines writes: BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVERS 1. pisteuo NT:4100, "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers. See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST. 2. peitho NT:3982, "to persuade," in the middle and passive voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e. g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and 27:11, "gave (more) heed"; in Acts 28:24, "believed. See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words Jesus said that it was blessed to believe without seeing. You believe in the ideals of a character in a book, yet (having) never seen the character outside of the book, you conclude that he was an Elmer Gantry. I think that you underestimate your original argument with Stile. You have only finished looking when you conclude that belief and knowledge are polar opposites. It appears to me that the opposite of belief is mistrust. You have gone all-in on trusting science while somehow feeling as if you have to discard your belief in order to do so.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2935 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 11:51 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2940 of 3207 (896476)
08-10-2022 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2937 by ringo
08-10-2022 11:59 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Little children don't worry about their retirement. Touche I suppose it could be said that worry is a form of mistrust. Edited by Phat, : added sentence
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2937 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 11:59 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2941 of 3207 (896477)
08-10-2022 1:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 2925 by AZPaul3
08-10-2022 12:17 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
It's like science and reality are the same thing. By and large yes...pending objective evidence. But some things remain unevidenced. Do we thus discard them from consideration pending further review?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2925 by AZPaul3, posted 08-10-2022 12:17 AM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2944 of 3207 (896485)
08-11-2022 1:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 2942 by AZPaul3
08-10-2022 2:53 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
You know I mean GOD
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2942 by AZPaul3, posted 08-10-2022 2:53 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2945 of 3207 (896486)
08-11-2022 1:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 2943 by Percy
08-10-2022 3:28 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
That there is no way to present them to others via objective evidence yet the committee has in its hands a list nonetheless. And I know where ringo will take this. He will include every god ever mentioned by humanity on the list. I can never win such arguments, but Church History is packed with people who could serve on the committee as well as many who should never be allowed to poison society with wishy-washy relativism. Edited by Phat, .
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2943 by Percy, posted 08-10-2022 3:28 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2949 by Percy, posted 08-11-2022 11:05 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2950 of 3207 (896495)
08-11-2022 11:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 2949 by Percy
08-11-2022 11:05 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
About this committee. Would it be made up of all political/religious spectrums?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2949 by Percy, posted 08-11-2022 11:05 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2964 by Percy, posted 08-12-2022 11:27 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2951 of 3207 (896496)
08-11-2022 11:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 2948 by Stile
08-11-2022 9:44 AM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Perhaps you accept the fact that once you have not only stopped looking but feel no need to look, you then "know". My argument would assume that one of those keys was the key to "the kingdom", Perhaps a necessary key for me to find and/or have. Perhaps not so much for you.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2948 by Stile, posted 08-11-2022 9:44 AM | | Stile has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2953 by Stile, posted 08-11-2022 12:09 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 2952 of 3207 (896497)
08-11-2022 11:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 372 by Stile
03-13-2014 12:27 PM
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Re: Philisophical Difference
Stile, addressing ringo writes: I get it... you don't accept the information we have as "enough." That's your judgment to make. We tend to look harder for things we *need*. If I need to get to work, I need my keys. I may glance at the table four or five times...even if it has been checked previously. If I were merely hungry for sharkfin soup one day, one glance at the Mcdonald's menu may prompt me to drive elsewhere. If I crawled out of a desert...parched for water, and saw a Mcdonald's open (or even closed) failing to find water on the menu would not cause me to move on. In my mind, Mcdonald's would simply *have* to have water.
Stile writes: However, I do see the information we have on God as being more than the information we have on many other things we all agree that (they) do not exist.
Perhaps one's level of knowledge is correlated with their need to know.
Stile writes: You see our available information on God as "only looking under one corner of the bed." I see it as looking under more of the bed than we look at for fairies, Santa Claus, mind-controlling-CIA-bases-on-the-moon, and other such things. You have your level of contentment, and I have mine. I also never equate fairies, CIA conspiracy theories, or Bigfoot with the same need-to-know urgency that I have for God, as I understand Him. So are you saying that since levels of contentment are relative to the individual, "knowing" is also relative to the individual? Or are you pushing for knowledge to be objective and absolute? Edited by Phat, : punctuation and clarity
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by Stile, posted 03-13-2014 12:27 PM | | Stile has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2957 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:37 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2958 by Stile, posted 08-11-2022 12:38 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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