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Author Topic:   Yet another Congressman who doesn't accept the theory of evolution
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 231 (677236)
10-28-2012 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
10-28-2012 8:41 AM


For example, if one was on the threshold of the lowest tax bracket then certainly one's tax bill could easily have gone from $100 to $200, but that's not due in any meaningful way to a change in the tax codes.
Exactly. Such a result could be directly a result of a change in the tax codes.
Further dwise1's own situation might have been more typical of the middle class for whom the different brackets were closer together than for the rich who could have larger income changes without changing brackets.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 10-28-2012 8:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Percy, posted 10-28-2012 2:49 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 197 of 231 (677239)
10-28-2012 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 12:56 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
While this looks like a reply to foreveryoung, it is intended as a message to everyone. And apologies that it will be a tad off-topic.
I'll start with a specific response to foreveryoung
I didn't realize that one's actions determined whether one was a christian or not.
No, actions do not determine whether one is a Christian. That is determined by what is in one's heart. However, one's actions do reveal what is in one's heart. And in your case, what they reveal is quite ugly.
Christianity taught me to be personally conservative, and socially liberal. That is, I should set high standards for myself, but be forgiving, considerate and supportive toward others. Unfortunately, foreveryoung seems to have that backward. He is personally liberal but socially conservative. He sets high standards for others, but does not try to live to those standards himself.
I received two IMs from foreveryoung, at around midnight (CDT) last night. You will not be surprised that foreveryoung is very angry. But why is he angry?
He should not be angry because I said he was not a Christian. After all, he does not respect me, so what I say should not matter to him. And he has been at evcforum long enough to know that most members here will make up there own minds, and won't take my word for it on whether foreveryoung is a Christian.
So why is he so angry? My guess is that what I said really hurts. And it really hurts because he knows that it is true.
A message to foreveryoung:
According to your own theology, you are saved by grace. But that grace is not supposed to be a "free ticket out of jail to do whatever you want". The point of grace is that you can be forgiven for your occasional lapses. But you are still supposed to set a high standard for yourself. When you do make a mistake, you are supposed to be contrite and to seek atonement. That, too, is part of your own theology.
The best of all, is that if you live as I suggest - personally conservative and socially liberal - you will enjoy your life in this world far more. Your constant anger, those high adrenaline levels -- they are bad for your health. Calm down, stop being angry, and then you can enjoy a more fulfilling life.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 12:56 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:47 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 198 of 231 (677240)
10-28-2012 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 12:56 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 12:56 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:41 PM Asgara has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 199 of 231 (677242)
10-28-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by vimesey
10-28-2012 4:00 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
You are judging my whole life based on what I say to a few people here. You have no clue whether I do things that are christian like in the rest of my life. You have no clue what motivates me to make every decisions that I make in my life. You have no idea where my heart is. Every last one of you makes a mockery of the God I worship. Some of you claim to worship this God, but by what you tell me you believe about this God and his book, you have a totally different God than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Your kind as absolutely ruined this country and I have zero respect for you. It is on that basis that I act the way I do toward you guys on here. It has no bearing whatsoever on whether I am a christian or not. God commands us to hate evil. That is exactly what I do on here. I hate the evil you guys spread and I treat you accordingly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by vimesey, posted 10-28-2012 4:00 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by vimesey, posted 10-28-2012 2:08 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 210 by Larni, posted 10-28-2012 3:33 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 211 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2012 4:02 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 200 of 231 (677243)
10-28-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Asgara
10-28-2012 12:14 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
All that tells me is that you have no idea what the fruits a true christian is supposed to have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Asgara, posted 10-28-2012 12:14 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Asgara, posted 10-28-2012 3:02 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 201 of 231 (677244)
10-28-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by nwr
10-28-2012 12:05 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
nwr writes:
No, actions do not determine whether one is a Christian. That is determined by what is in one's heart. However, one's actions do reveal what is in one's heart. And in your case, what they reveal is quite ugly.
There you go judging my heart incorrectly. You cannot judge someones heart based on an emotional reaction. You also cannot judge someones heart when you yourself are not a christian. You are not a christian nwr based on what you say you believe on here. I have yet to hear from a true christian here on evc come to the same conclusion as the non christians on here including types like you who falsely claim to be christians. To make it as simple as possible, being a christian is determined by what you believe and not by what you do. What you do isn't always in line with what you believe. All you guys see is my anger. I don't get angry around true christians. That ought to tell you guys something. Of course it won't because you all have dark and evil hearts.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 12:05 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 202 of 231 (677245)
10-28-2012 1:51 PM


If we are going to judge peoples hearts based on their actions, then many of the so called christians in here are not christians at all. I don't judge you by that hypocritical standard though. I judge you by what you believe about what God says in his word.

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 203 of 231 (677246)
10-28-2012 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
10-28-2012 9:42 AM


jar writes:
Slow down and read what you just wrote.
What is the difference between believing something when there is NO evidence and believing something where there is evidence and ALL of the evidence shows the belief is false?
Like I said, christians don't believe what God says in his word because of the evidence. Likewise, they don't stop believing what God says in his word because all of the evidence shows the belief is false.
This should actually apply to everyone, not just christians. You shouldn't necessarily stop believing something because all of the evidence shows your belief to be false. There is something to be said for intuition. I follow mine all time and not necessarily in respect to christianity. If we stopped believing something because all of the evidence shows the belief to be false, then there would be times when not all the evidence was available and when that evidence did become available, our belief would turn out to be vindicated. You people worship evidence when it seems to go along with what you already want to believe. You don't handle evidence the right way and you call things evidence that really aren't evidence at all. As I mentioned before, the worst part is that you base your conclusions and your decisions on the false belief that you have ALL the evidence, when many times you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 10-28-2012 9:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by subbie, posted 10-28-2012 2:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 206 by jar, posted 10-28-2012 2:21 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 10-28-2012 6:22 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 219 by Taq, posted 10-29-2012 1:02 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 220 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-29-2012 1:47 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 204 of 231 (677248)
10-28-2012 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 2:00 PM


You people worship evidence when it seems to go along with what you already want to believe. You don't handle evidence the right way and you call things evidence that really aren't evidence at all. As I mentioned before, the worst part is that you base your conclusions and your decisions on the false belief that you have ALL the evidence, when many times you don't.
Do you have any actual examples of this? Or is it just your intuition?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 2:00 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 205 of 231 (677249)
10-28-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 1:40 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
You would be hard pushed to say that any part of my previous post was an attempt to judge your whole life - I was coming back to you on your proposal that behaviour is irrelevant to whether or not one is a Christian, which struck me as an unfortunate thing to say.
But can you reconcile something for me - because this does go to the question of Christian-like behaviour. You say:
God commands us to hate evil. That is exactly what I do on here. I hate the evil you guys spread and I treat you accordingly.
How do you reconcile that with Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you".
This is part of the disconnect between loving, charitable, Christian behaviour, and the simple profession of Christianity which I was referring to.
Edited by vimesey, : Got the quotes code wrong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:40 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 206 of 231 (677250)
10-28-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 2:00 PM


Hiring a politician
Like I said, christians don't believe what God says in his word because of the evidence. Likewise, they don't stop believing what God says in his word because all of the evidence shows the belief is false.
And that is the problem with that type of Christianity. They make a mockery of GOD and Christianity.
I suppose you can show where anyone other than you thinks they have all the evidence, but a wise man DOES make decisions based on the evidence that is available.
This is particularly important when hiring a politician to make decisions in areas like Health and Welfare, Natural Resources and Science and Technology. We do not need people in such positions making decisions based on "intuition" and in particular, we can not afford politicians making decisions based on their religious beliefs.
The US is NOT a Christian Nation and we have a secular government.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 2:00 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 207 of 231 (677251)
10-28-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by NoNukes
10-28-2012 11:20 AM


NoNukes writes:
For example, if one was on the threshold of the lowest tax bracket then certainly one's tax bill could easily have gone from $100 to $200, but that's not due in any meaningful way to a change in the tax codes.
Exactly. Such a result could be directly a result of a change in the tax codes.
The point of my example was that percentage changes from a low base can be wildly out of whack as a means of telling you anything informative. For another example, if you double your annual income from $100 to $200 its a negligible change, but if you double it from $100,000 to $200,000, now that's a really significant change.
I think a very low income must have been DWise1's situation. Minimum wage in 1986 was $3.35/hour, which is roughly $7,000 annually, and a single exemption would have brought it to $5920 for 1986 ($1080 for a single exemption) and $5100 for 1987 ($1900 for a single exemption). So his tax bill for 1986 would have been $423.30 and for 1987 would have been $693, a 63.7% increase.
But percentage changes from a low base can be misleadingly high. Here are figures for other salary levels. Again, these are for a single person with a single exemption, and the exemption went from $1080 in 1986 to $1900 in 1987. I deducted the appropriate standard exemption from the salary before making the calculation:
A $5,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $160.90 for 1986 and $393 for 1987, an increase of 144%.
A $10,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $1033.70 for 1986 and $1143 for 1987, an increase of 38%.
A $20,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $2788.20 for 1986 and $2812 for 1987, an increase of 0.8%.
A $30,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $5509.00 for 1986 and $5689 for 1987, an increase of 3.3%.
A $40,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $8907.40 for 1986 and $9189 for 1987, an increase of 3.2%.
A $50,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $12,873.00 for 1986 and $12,689 for 1987, an increase of -1.4%.
A $60,000 taxable income yields tax bills of $17,073.00 for 1986 and $17,064 for 1987, an increase of -.1%.
Here are links to the information I used:
1986 (tax rate schedules on page 43): http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i1040--1986.pdf
1987 (tax rate schedules on page 47): http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i1040--1987.pdf
We can see from this that the tax acts of the 1980's were unfair, but not in the way DWise1 said. Those at the lowest income levels saw their taxes increase, while those at middle income levels saw negligible change, and those at the highest levels saw significant decreases (I didn't provide any examples for high wage earners).
But to repeat my bottom line point: One doesn't have to make things up to compose effective arguments against Republican economic policies. Implying that Reagan doubled tax rates for typical wage earners simply isn't true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 10-28-2012 11:20 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 208 of 231 (677252)
10-28-2012 2:53 PM


Speaking just for myself...
Could we not turn this into yet another thread about ForEverYoung? Maybe open another Coffee House thread? Maybe use PM - the To and Cc accept as many names as you like?
--Percy

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 209 of 231 (677253)
10-28-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
I guess you are telling me that YOU are a true Christian and know what the fruits are suppose to be.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
A Pain In My Ass | my journey through colon cancer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 210 of 231 (677255)
10-28-2012 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 1:40 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
God commands us to hate evil.
God also commands you to kill gay people. Do you do that?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:40 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:55 AM Larni has replied

  
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