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Author Topic:   Innocence Riots
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 181 of 256 (674017)
09-25-2012 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by jar
09-25-2012 7:21 PM


Re: "War"
I am saying that "war" is something that can only be done by a Nation State.
That's ridiculous.
quote:
War is an organized, armed, and, often, a prolonged conflict that is carried on between states, nations, or other parties typified by extreme aggression, social disruption, and usually high mortality
Other parties is what "they" are. When two tribes are at war, it's WAR. Anyone can be at war with another group.
They are in a holy war - jihad - against us, as defined and declared by THEM.
quote:
jihad noun \ji-ˈhd, chiefly British -ˈhad\
Definition of JIHAD : a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty.
Sorry, but them's the actual facts.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 7:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:25 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 256 (674019)
09-25-2012 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by onifre
09-25-2012 9:07 PM


Re: "War"
You are, of course, welcome to your beliefs.
But an organization must be one that is recognized, has a form and a government.
Sorry but them's the facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 9:07 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 9:34 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 183 of 256 (674021)
09-25-2012 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
09-25-2012 9:25 PM


Re: "War"
You are, of course, welcome to your beliefs.
Beliefs? I provided you with the definition of war, what are you talking about?
But an organization must be one that is recognized, has a form and a government.
Can you provide evidence for that, or is this your opinion? If it's your opinion then fine, I don't have a problem with that. But then you'd prove Straggler's point.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:38 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 256 (674022)
09-25-2012 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by onifre
09-25-2012 9:34 PM


Re: "War"
To have a war there must be some way to end the war and unless there is a recognized government there is simply no way to end a war.
Sorry but them's the facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 9:34 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 10:03 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 185 of 256 (674023)
09-25-2012 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
09-25-2012 9:38 PM


Re: "War"
To have a war there must be some way to end the war and unless there is a recognized government there is simply no way to end a war.
Can you provide evidence for that, or is this your opinion? If it's your opinion then fine, I don't have a problem with that. But then you'd prove Straggler's point.
Sorry but them's the facts.
If they are the facts then you should have no trouble providing evidence for it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 10:05 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 256 (674024)
09-25-2012 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by onifre
09-25-2012 10:03 PM


Re: "War"
I provided the facts.
And I don't play children's games.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 10:03 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 10:23 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 188 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 10:28 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 187 of 256 (674028)
09-25-2012 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
09-25-2012 10:05 PM


Re: "War"
I provided the facts.
Can you tell me which message/s you did that in?
And I don't play children's games.
I don't know what that means.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 10:05 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 188 of 256 (674029)
09-25-2012 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
09-25-2012 10:05 PM


Re: "War"
I provided the facts.
This is what you said in message 142:
quote:
I don't think a non Nation State can conduct a war.
I'll ask again, since you only said "I don't think"...
Is this something you KNOW to be fact or is this just something you THINK is fact?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 10:05 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 256 (674056)
09-26-2012 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by onifre
09-25-2012 7:07 PM


Re: One-Way - "War"
They don't have a sovereign state
They consider all of the Middle East holy land, and defend it.
They who? We're not really talking about one cohesive group here. And personal considerations are not what determines sovereign states.
they don't have a military
They sure do, it's just not as well funded as ours.
Militaries are more formal than what they have. They're irregulars.
Smashing planes into buildings is a poor mans version of a drone attack.
No. The former is a terrorist attack and the latter is a military strike.
It sent us into a financial colapse,
Did it? Apparently we can still afford the drone attacks.
They're not fighting YOUR war, they're fighting THEIR war.
And our war is better classified as such.
But can you see why they see the attacks on 9/11 justified?
Yeah, and I can see why they see the subjugation of their women and killing their gays justified too... but that don't make it right nor acceptable.
But you're comparing apples to oranges.
It's all fruits though...
But only one works well in some good ol' fashioned American pie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by onifre, posted 09-25-2012 7:07 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by onifre, posted 09-26-2012 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 190 of 256 (674063)
09-26-2012 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2012 2:07 PM


Re: One-Way - "War"
Oni gave a pretty good response so I'll be interested to see how you respond to that.
But - Let me be clear - I'm not saying which actions are or aren't justified here. I'm simply objecting to what seems to be a case of legitimacy/condemnation by numbers (or more accurately by definitions). This is just a way of disengaging the brain from asking the difficult questions by asking who did it rather than examining what was done and the context in which said action was taken.
CS writes:
They don't have a sovereign state, they don't have a military...
Can you see how from their point of view the absence of a sovereign state or an officially recognised military isn't particularly important in distinguishing between acts of murderous terrorism and acts of warfare?
CS writes:
...they used civilians...
I thought the whole rationale behind drone attacks was that members of Al Qaeda were enemy combatants rather than civilians. Another convenient double standard?
CS writes:
...to target civilians...
As we have already discussed - As morally dubious as I think it is the strategic targeting of civilians and specific important industries is not without historical precedent between warring entities.
Cs writes:
...in an act that provided no military advantage.
It sought to gain the same sort of military advantage that the Nazi bombings of London in WW2 sought to gain.
I don’t believe 9/11 was justified. Nor do I think present US activities are justified. But whatever conclusion you or I might come to about which activities are militarily justified and which aren’t there is no justification for imposing a raft of definitions that result in the rather ridiculous notion of a one-sided-war where only one side can ever be justified in it’s actions by definition. That is just self-serving-definitional-silliness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2012 2:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 09-26-2012 10:06 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 256 (674064)
09-26-2012 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Straggler
09-26-2012 10:00 AM


Re: One-Way - "War"
I don’t believe 9/11 was justified. Nor do I think present US activities are justified. But whatever conclusion you or I might come to about which activities are militarily justified and which aren’t there is no justification for imposing a raft of definitions that result in the rather ridiculous notion of a one-sided-war where only one side can ever be justified in it’s actions by definition. That is just self-serving-definitional-silliness.
But I don't think anyone is saying anything about justification.
I think you may be conflating killing and murder, what may be legal and what is always illegal.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 09-26-2012 10:00 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Straggler, posted 09-26-2012 11:36 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 192 of 256 (674075)
09-26-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by jar
09-26-2012 10:06 AM


Re: One-Way - "War"
jar writes:
But I don't think anyone is saying anything about justification.
Actually you have said a great deal about justification through a rather self-serving set of prior definitions. The end result of these definitions is the rather ridiculous notion of a one-sided-war where only one side can ever be justified in it’s actions - By definition. Self-serving-definitional-silliness that alleviates the need to question individual actions rather than just take sides.
jar writes:
The killings were carried out by military forces under direction of a Nation State. They are not murder.
jar writes:
I am saying that "war" is something that can only be done by a Nation State.
jar writes:
The people that planned and carried out the terrorist attacks on the WTC were not a Nation State and so had no right to take such action. Terrorist attacks are murder.
jar writes:
Murder by definition is never justified.
You may or may not have reached the right conclusion regarding whose actions should be condemned as unjustified and whose actions can be considered justified. But that isn’t the point.
The point is that it is just lazy thinking to reach such conclusions by virtue of definitions rather than actually consider the rights and wrongs of individual actions.
jar writes:
I think you may be conflating killing and murder, what may be legal and what is always illegal.
I think you are conflating that which is legal with that which is justified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 09-26-2012 10:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 09-26-2012 11:51 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 256 (674076)
09-26-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Straggler
09-26-2012 11:36 AM


Re: One-Way - "War"
I see no justification in that at all.
Sorry but no where in those quotes did I justify anything.
No where have I discussed justification.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Straggler, posted 09-26-2012 11:36 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 09-26-2012 12:55 PM jar has replied
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 09-26-2012 5:42 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 194 of 256 (674083)
09-26-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by New Cat's Eye
09-26-2012 9:24 AM


Re: One-Way - "War"
They who? We're not really talking about one cohesive group here. And personal considerations are not what determines sovereign states.
C'mon, the Mujahideen/Al-Qeada. The US refers to them as militants. Once lead by Bin Ladin.
We are most certainly talking about a cohesive group, and if you don't think so then you should follow the link and read up on them a bit.
Militaries are more formal than what they have.
Just because we have matching uniforms doesn't make them any less a military. A military is a group that uses leathal force to defend it's land or country.
The funny part is, when they were fighting the Russians we called them the Afghan military. Now they're fighting us and we call them rebel militants.
The former is a terrorist attack and the latter is a military strike.
Not to them. Which proves Straggler's point that you would see it that way.
Did it? Apparently we can still afford the drone attacks.
No, but it was their goal. Which was your point.
We can still afford drones because you got up to go to work today. So long as there's a middle class, we'll have drone monies.
And our war is better classified as such.
Yeah, I get that you feel that way. That's the point. To THEM there is no higher authority then their God, therefore their war is the right war. The only war. It will end when all the infidels are dead. Ours is a war for oil and imperialist needs, which makes ours superficial and driven by greed. Which I don't fully disagree with them.
Yeah, and I can see why they see the subjugation of their women and killing their gays justified too... but that don't make it right nor acceptable.
Never said it was acceptable. I agree that a war fought in the name of a God is stupid. But they don't, and that remains the point.
But only one works well in some good ol' fashioned American pie.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2012 9:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2012 3:53 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 195 of 256 (674084)
09-26-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by jar
09-26-2012 11:51 AM


Re: One-Way - "War"
I see no justification in that at all.
Sorry but no where in those quotes did I justify anything.
No where have I discussed justification.
Yes you did. You said war is justified and murder is not. You said only Nation States can go to war and they cannot be at war. Therefore anything we do can be justified but nothing they do will be justified.
But, as I have shown you, they too are at war. War has nothing to do with being a "Nation State" and you have done nothing to prove it does.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 09-26-2012 11:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 09-26-2012 12:59 PM onifre has replied

  
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