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Author Topic:   Innocence Riots
Percy
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Posts: 22475
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 1 of 256 (673168)
09-14-2012 6:15 PM


Much of the Muslim world seems to recognize both the irony and counterproductivity of the recent demonstrations, riots, embassy invasions and murders, but it goes over enough Muslim heads that they happen anyway. We have our own ironically challenged people in Terry Jones and his ilk, but at least they're not storming Arab embassies and murdering diplomats.
Don't have much else to say about it, I guess.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 2 of 256 (673171)
09-14-2012 6:35 PM


As I said elsewhere:
They're acting like children. The kind of behaviour you might expect from a five year old is being played out by armed adults. It's utterly pathetic. When it comes down to it this entire thing is essentially equivalent to them going "your mate was mean to my mate" and then being mean to you. Top that kind of utter immaturity off with a healthy helping of such utter ignorance about the world that they think that their actions are actually getting back at those that made the film instead of absolutely playing into their hands and you have the current mess.
I find it hard to be scared of such people, they're so pathetically silly albeit dangerous on their own turf.

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Dirk
Member (Idle past 4042 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 3 of 256 (673176)
09-15-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Jack
09-14-2012 6:35 PM


They're acting like children.
I don't think it's that simple. If the rioters were genuinely interested in getting a message across to the US and get this movie censored, then why are non-US missions also attacked? I think that, in order to explain these regularly occurring riots, you have to be much more cynical: there are people in these countries (both in and outside government) for whom it is advantageous if their country is in a continuous state of anarchy and they simply use this video (or a cartoon) as an excuse to keep it that way. Some outrage may be genuine (but still wrong), but a lot of it isn't.

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Phat
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Posts: 18296
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 256 (673181)
09-15-2012 3:07 PM


utter nonsense
I agree that these people are being childish, though I suspect an ulterior motive...somebody is whipping them to a frenzy...not just the movie, the movie is an excuse. It worries me when people are rioting...makes me afraid they want to change the world I live in, which in turn causes me to get defensive.
We have enough problems trying to balance our budget and get back to the lifestyle that we grew up with without having to appease a bunch of malcontents who want to change the status quo.

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Percy
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Posts: 22475
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 5 of 256 (673196)
09-16-2012 8:12 AM


After more thought...
There is a great deal of pent-up rage in the Arab world at America and to a lesser extent all the western world. Certain events, such as movies, cartoons, military or political actions, etc., can trigger expressions of this rage.
Upon reflection I think there's a lot to be said for secrecy and covert actions. Instead of shouting from the rooftops, "We killed bin Laden," we should be saying, "We're still searching for him. He can't hide forever." Never admitting publicly that we killed him would have meant that we would never have publicly challenged the Pakistani government for harboring him, and we would know that the Pakistani's couldn't be trusted, but they wouldn't know that we know. Yeah, a lot to be said for covert ops.
So if the Arab world didn't know bin Laden was dead, or at least that we killed him, and they didn't know that we're going around with drones killing other al-Qaeda operatives, and they didn't know we were invading sovereign territory without authorization, would the expression of outrage at the Innocence trailer be as great?
Or maybe we could begin behaving like a responsible world citizen? That's not to say bin Laden didn't deserve death or that the Taliban didn't need to be reined in, but will we ever learn that nothing incites hatred and screws a country up more than an invasion? We'll be paying in blood for our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan for a long time to come.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2012 10:08 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 09-16-2012 10:35 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2012 12:24 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 256 (673201)
09-16-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
09-16-2012 8:12 AM


Re: After more thought...
Upon reflection I think there's a lot to be said for secrecy and covert actions. Instead of shouting from the rooftops, "We killed bin Laden," we should be saying, "We're still searching for him. He can't hide forever."
I don't think we could have pulled this off. I agree with what you say in principle.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 256 (673205)
09-16-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
09-16-2012 8:12 AM


Re: After more thought...
Or maybe we could begin behaving like a responsible world citizen?
I'm for that. But domestic politics seems to get in the way.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2125 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 8 of 256 (673208)
09-16-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
09-16-2012 8:12 AM


Re: After more thought...
There is a great deal of pent-up rage in the Arab world at America and to a lesser extent all the western world.
Perhaps some of this is due to the cultural phenomena which have prevented that part of the world from making the progress--on many levels--that so characterize the Western world.
During the Dark Ages, the Arab world was a center of knowledge, but that has been left behind.
Upon reflection I think there's a lot to be said for secrecy and covert actions. Instead of shouting from the rooftops...
There's a lot to what you say, but I think that in that part of the world strength is a trait that is greatly admired. Perhaps it is better to be feared than to be liked? Lately, in that part of the world, we have neither.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 9 of 256 (673212)
09-16-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-14-2012 6:15 PM


It seems as though these riots really have nothing to do with the video. The video is a foil for pre-existing anger.
In particular, its looking more and more like the incident in Libya was something else all together, either done in the opportunity of the anger or in coincidence with it.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 10 of 256 (673213)
09-16-2012 12:49 PM


riots seldom make sense
Those old enough may well remember the period when US cities were burning. It's not really a cultural or societal characteristic but rather a pretty universal reaction to perceived oppression, poverty and ignorance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 11 of 256 (673417)
09-19-2012 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jazzns
09-16-2012 12:49 PM


"The only surprise is there aren't more violent protests in the Middle East"
Interesting article in the Guardian today:
Link writes:
But it would be absurd not to recognise that the scale of the response isn't just about a repulsive video, or even reverence for the prophet. As is obvious from the slogans and targets, what set these protests alight is the fact that the injury to Muslims is seen once again to come from an arrogant hyperpower that has invaded, subjugated and humiliated the Arab and Muslim world for decades.
Since launching the war on terror, the US and its allies have attacked and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq; bombed Libya; killed thousands in drone attacks in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia; imposed devastating sanctions; backed Israel's occupation and dispossession of the Palestinians to the hilt; carried out large-scale torture, kidnapping and internment without trial; maintained multiple bases to protect client dictatorships throughout the region; and now threaten Iran with another act of illegal war.
The video is manifestly only the latest trigger for a deep popular anger in a region where opposition to imperial domination is now channelled mainly through the politics of Islam rather than nationalism. The idea that Arab and Muslim hostility to the US would have been assuaged because it intervened to commandeer Libya's uprising (an intervention most Arabs reject) is absurd.
About two-thirds of people in the Middle East and North Africa say they distrust the US, polling shows, rising to more than three-quarters in Pakistan. After 11 years of the war on terror, following decades of baleful intervention, the only surprise is that there aren't more violent anti-US and anti-western protests in the region.
Full Article

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 256 (673432)
09-19-2012 11:52 AM


This sheds an interesting light on the film and its creator.
ETA: See also here.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 256 (673448)
09-19-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
09-19-2012 8:33 AM


Re: "The only surprise is there aren't more violent protests in the Middle East"
Since launching the war on terror, the US and its allies have attacked and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq; bombed Libya; killed thousands in drone attacks in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia; imposed devastating sanctions; backed Israel's occupation and dispossession of the Palestinians to the hilt; carried out large-scale torture, kidnapping and internment without trial; maintained multiple bases to protect client dictatorships throughout the region; and now threaten Iran with another act of illegal war.
Yeah, but that's not the stuff they're mad about. They're mad about that the US staged 9/11 as an excuse to seize the mineral wealth of Afghanistan and Iraq. They're mad about that the US conspires with Israel to economically and intellectually impoverish the nations of the Muslim world. They're mad that the US kidnaps children off the street and tortures them just for fun. They're mad that it's the official policy of the United States to advance the forces of Satan against the one, true religion of Islam.
In other words, most of what they're mad about are things we can't convince them we're not doing, even if we stopped dropping bombs from drones and started dropping flowers. The rage of the Muslim world against the United States is as much a product of conspiracy theory - theories promoted by local leaders who find it helpful to gin up anti-American rage to distract from their own corruption and mismanagement - as it is our actual actions.
"Since launching the war on terror", except, we didn't launch the war on terror. Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda did. Our embassies were under attack long before 9/11, long before drones, long before intervention in Libya and Pakistan. Long before sanctions. All of the above were a response to the destructive violence pouring out of the Muslim world directed at innocent Americans. It's probably the case that it was the wrong response, but you can't argue that we're responsible for what's going on over there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 09-19-2012 8:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 09-19-2012 1:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 256 (673450)
09-19-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
09-19-2012 1:11 PM


Re: "The only surprise is there aren't more violent protests in the Middle East"
Crash writes:
All of the above were a response to the destructive violence pouring out of the Muslim world directed at innocent Americans. It's probably the case that it was the wrong response, but you can't argue that we're responsible for what's going on over there.
It's too simplistic to simply say "Their fault. Not ours." The West has been picking sides and selling weapons to it's preferred puppets for decades. Our oil companies have been exploiting Middle East oil resources for decades too. Western interference has a long and undignified record in the Middle East that dates back long before 9/11.
You can blame radical Islam for all ills or you can claim that radical Islam is an entirely inevitable product of evil Western governments subjugating dontrodden Arabs.
Like most things - The fact is that the truth lies somewhere in-between.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 09-19-2012 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 15 of 256 (673457)
09-19-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
09-19-2012 1:29 PM


Re: "The only surprise is there aren't more violent protests in the Middle East"
The thread "So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?" tried to look at some of the history that lead to today's situation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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