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Author Topic:   do Christians want their values enforced on everyone by law?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 68 (361565)
11-04-2006 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
When then does the alleged theocracy get the Bible back in government schools as it was for over a century before the secularists took over?
When they either amend the Constitution or appoint enough Supreme Court Justices who are willing to ignore over 40 years of jurisprudence.
So far, no luck, thank god.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 68 (361566)
11-04-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:15 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
Why then did the authors/framers of the constitution have far more Christianity in government than is allowed by the more secularist electorate today.
Specific examples, please.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:33 PM subbie has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 68 (361569)
11-04-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
Arach writes:
the unfortunate thing about democracy is that if the majority of the people want a theocracy, we have one.
LOL. When then does the alleged theocracy get the Bible back in government schools as it was for over a century before the secularists took over?
i believe my original statement answered that question: when there is a majority of people who want that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:14 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 68 (361574)
11-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by subbie
11-04-2006 4:16 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
subbie writes:
When they either amend the Constitution or appoint enough Supreme Court Justices who are willing to ignore over 40 years of jurisprudence.
So far, no luck, thank god.
Amending the Constitution is one huge task requiring extreme majority support. The they who must do the amending happens to be a whole lot of you secularists who would need evangelization of ideology via big time revival. No worries for you the way things are going. Your side certainly has the momentum.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 68 (361584)
11-04-2006 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
11-04-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
Arach writes:
i believe my original statement answered that question: when there is a majority of people who want that.
True, but what is so unfortunate as you put it? There never was a theocracy in America, even when church was in government and never can be under the Constitution. That secularist legislators and judge appointees eventually imposed laws forbidding Christian literature, et al in public school cirriculum upon the minority proved that. That's not unfortunate for you secularists. It's unfortunate for us who's priviledges are forbidden by imposition of the majority electorate. The system is working as it should with nobody but who the majority elects ultimately doing the imposing of laws on the people at large.
That we, the minority campaign for and support implimentation of Biblical values poses no threat. If government got too religious for the wishes of the people in a democratic republic all the people need do is rally support for and get the desired change.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 11-04-2006 5:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 41 by nator, posted 11-04-2006 8:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 21 of 68 (361589)
11-04-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
Buzsaw writes:
That we, the minority campaign for and support implimentation of Biblical values poses no threat. If government got too religious for the wishes of the people in a democratic republic all the people need do is rally support for and get the desired change.
I'll be there on Tuesday Hope you guys remember how you have been played for suckers as outlined in the book Tempting Faith by David Kuo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 68 (361590)
11-04-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by subbie
11-04-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
subbie writes:
Specific examples, please.
I'll cite one of many so as not to lead off topic. (Embolding mine for emphasis)
Church in Congress Quote writes:
The cornerstone of the Capitol was laid by President George Washington in 1793., but it was not until the end of 1800 that Congress actually moved into the building. According to the congressional records for late November of 1800, Congress spent the first few weeks organizing the Capitol rooms, committees, locations, etc. Then, on December 4, 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building. 1
The approval of the Capitol for church was given by both the House and the Senate, with House approval being given by Speaker of the House, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, and Senate approval being given by the President of the Senate, Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President 5 and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson’s friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. 6 Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the “wall of separation between church and state” metaphor.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?R... - 57k -

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 11-04-2006 5:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 23 of 68 (361595)
11-04-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
Buzsaw writes:
3. The majority way back in Jefferson's day in fact voted for this president who had church services in the halls of congress and decided that the marine band would be nice for the music in those services. Magin that. Nowadays the majority wouldn't think of such a thing.
So because the majority decided to thumb their noses at the Constitution in the past, we should go ahead and do it now? Or worse, change the Constitution in a way that goes against its original purpose?
If we are going to change the Constitution to restrict some groups' freedoms perhaps we should go a little further to help out the majority. Hmmm...
How about repealing the first ammendment so that only the Christian religion is allowed? I find myself continually suprised that the political Christians aren't pushing for this. Wasn't the breaking of the first Commandment the main reason God kept punishing Israel?
Maybe we could get enough votes to reinstitute slavery. The Muslims would be a good group to put forward as potential servants.

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 24 of 68 (361597)
11-04-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
It's unfortunate for us who's priviledges are forbidden by imposition of the majority electorate.
What privileges are forbidden you?

Regime change in Washington - midterm elections, Nov 7

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 68 (361600)
11-04-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
There never was a theocracy in America, even when church was in government and never can be under the Constitution.
that statement does not parse.
That secularist legislators and judge appointees eventually imposed laws forbidding Christian literature, et al in public school cirriculum upon the minority proved that.
i think your chronology is mixed up. there had been separation of church and state for a long time before there were public schools. the first real public schools popped up around 1840, and there wasn't even federal regulation until 1980.
further, your point is still incredibly wrong. as just about anyone who has been to high school will tell you, there is indeed christian literature on the reading list. just like there is hindu, babylonian, native american, and a myriad other cultures represented. many students read dante's inferno, milton's paradise lost, and even genesis. really. we might even be able to count the the canterbury tales in there, too.
the difference is that it's not taught as fact, it's taught as literature. students are left free to believe whatever they wish, and there is certainly no prohibition on christianity. ask any high school prayer group.
That we, the minority campaign for and support implimentation of Biblical values poses no threat.
that you wish to force others to comply with your religious beliefs does. just as if muslims wished force your wives you wear veils, it would pose a threat to your beliefs.
imposing neutrality is not a threat. imposing bias is. neutrality is not bias. by definition. i really wish the fundamentalist types would just get this simple point through their heads.
If government got too religious for the wishes of the people in a democratic republic all the people need do is rally support for and get the desired change.
we shall see tuesday.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 26 of 68 (361603)
11-04-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:33 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
I'm not sure that this would be an off-topic discussion, but if you wish to start a new thread, I'd be delighted to take this discussion there.
As for that particular example, I don't see that as "far more Christianity in government." Church services were held in the Capitol building because, according to the site, there were no church buildings in Washington D.C. People who were in government attended the services, but there's nothing to suggest they were doing so in their capacity as a governmental official. In fact, given that Congress now is opened by a prayer led by a Chaplin employed by the government, I don't find the practice you describe as remarkable in the least.
If you don't want to go into a lot of things, just give me your best shot. So far, you got nothing to support your assertion that there was "far more Christianity in government" then than there is now.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 68 (361607)
11-04-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:33 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
how many times must this be brought up here?
jefferson went to church a few times, yeah. but he was a deist, not a christian. if you were to actually look for quotes from him, you'd find that he actually had quite a strong distaste for christianity.
to try to make any point otherwise is taking something out of context; quote-mining in extreme.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 68 (361608)
11-04-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nwr
11-04-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
What privileges are forbidden you?
buzsaw is forbidden the privelege of enforcing his religion.

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 29 of 68 (361613)
11-04-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
11-04-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
You are quite correct in what you are saying, but the point that Buz is trying to make with his church example is broader than that.
According to the site that he linked, the Capitol building itself was used as a church, for non-denominational services, which Jefferson himself attended. The significance of this is that Buz believes this demonstrates that some of the founding fathers had a more liberal attitude about governmental involvement with Christianity than is allowed today, suggesting, I suppose, that we are misunderstanding their views.
Now, the site does say the services were "nondenominational," but I can't find any place where they define how they are using that term. Do they mean the services were Christian, but not geared toward any particular flavor, RC, Protestant, etc, or were they simply worshiping a deity generally, whether it be Christian, Jewish, or what-have-you? If it means the latter, Buz's example shows, at most, governmental involvement with religion in general, not Christianity specifically.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 11-04-2006 6:02 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 68 (361614)
11-04-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by subbie
11-04-2006 5:57 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
subbie writes:
As for that particular example, I don't see that as "far more Christianity in government." Church services were held in the Capitol building because, according to the site, there were no church buildings in Washington D.C.
Did you miss this in that link? (Embolding mine for emphasis)
The absence of churches in Washington eventually changed, however. As one Washington citizen reported: “For several years after the seat of government was fixed at Washington, there were but two small [wooden] churches. . . . Now, in 1837 there are 22 churches of brick or stone.” 4 Yet, even after churches began proliferating across the city, religious services still continued at the Capitol until well after the Civil War and Reconstruction.
subbie writes:
People who were in government attended the services, but there's nothing to suggest they were doing so in their capacity as a governmental official. In fact, given that Congress now is opened by a prayer led by a Chaplin employed by the government, I don't find the practice you describe as remarkable in the least.
Are you trying to argue that going from church in Congress attended by supporters of the Constitution utilizing the government's military band is not "far more Christianity in government" than is allowed in government today? Are we going to be reasonable here or am I going to have to ignore some unreasonable arguments so as not to become embroiled in more than I can handle timewise?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 11-04-2006 5:57 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by subbie, posted 11-04-2006 6:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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