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Author Topic:   Religion versus Constitution
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 52 (253452)
10-20-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by FliesOnly
10-20-2005 10:00 AM


quote:
Who out there thinks that their religious views should supersede the Constitution?
*Sigh* I'm really missing Faith right now.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by FliesOnly, posted 10-20-2005 10:00 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 52 (253482)
10-20-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by FliesOnly
10-20-2005 3:22 PM


fundamentalist paranoia
quote:
They just want a nice, quite society oozing with peace and love.
And they are quite sincere, Flies. Part of fundamentalism (at least the crowd I belonged to) is a big dose of paranoia. They (or at least a not insignificant bunch of them) are expecting, any minute, jack-booted thugs to start burning down churches and kicking in their doors and sending them to reeducation camps. And every removal of the Ten Commandments from a court house or presentation of evolution in a high school class room or the availability of free condoms to high school students is a sign of the coming persecution (if these incidents are not seen as persecutions themselves).

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by FliesOnly, posted 10-20-2005 3:22 PM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Jazzns, posted 10-20-2005 6:07 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 19 by FliesOnly, posted 10-21-2005 1:17 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 23 by HaggisnNeeps, posted 10-21-2005 9:34 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 18 of 52 (253489)
10-20-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
10-20-2005 5:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Which is really silly actually. If I were a futurist end-timer I would welcome those things. It means that Jesus is coming.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 10-20-2005 5:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 19 of 52 (253698)
10-21-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
10-20-2005 5:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Thanks for the insight Chiroptera...it's really nice (in a scary OMGWTF! kind of way). One thing I really want to know is how they can warp this attitude into being a good, patriotic American. It is one thing to accept these ideas...it's another to somehow twist them into proving what a great American you are.
I't would be nice to hear from people like Randman and Faith and Buzzsaw, to get an idea of how they feel about this issue. For example, do they agree with the gentleman on NPR (the guy that would pick an evangelical over a Constitutional scholar to sit on the Supreme Court)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 10-20-2005 5:17 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NeuroCycle, posted 10-21-2005 1:39 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 21 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2005 5:30 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2005 8:43 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
NeuroCycle
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 52 (253702)
10-21-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by FliesOnly
10-21-2005 1:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
One thing I really want to know is how they can warp this attitude into being a good, patriotic American. It is one thing to accept these ideas...it's another to somehow twist them into proving what a great American you are.
Some of the Evangelicals think that the Consitution (not to mention every other facet of Amercia) was built around Christianity. They don't see anying unpatriotic about trying to instill a religious (Christian only please) slant on the Constution.
Neuro

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 52 (253797)
10-21-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by FliesOnly
10-21-2005 1:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
quote:
One thing I really want to know is how they can warp this attitude into being a good, patriotic American.
I wonder the same thing, but for a different reason.
It is a matter of faith that all humans are equal before God.
It is a matter of faith that all humans, including our leaders, are fallible.
It is a matter of faith, at least among the fundamentalists, that the American society is sinful and becoming ever hostile to Christians.
Even as a fundamentalist I could never understand the Religious Right's nationalism. It was clear to me as a fundamentalist, that the both the State and society, in so far as they have any purpose at all, are tools to use to perfect a Christian society, and to be obeyed or disobeyed as they follow God's will; they were not to be entities to which one owes "loyalty".

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by FliesOnly, posted 10-21-2005 1:17 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-22-2005 12:03 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 26 by bkelly, posted 10-22-2005 10:36 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 52 (253878)
10-21-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by FliesOnly
10-21-2005 1:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
One thing I really want to know is how they can warp this attitude into being a good, patriotic American.
because they see it as a metaphysical two-fer:
free american
fully dedicated christian
Someone said that faith involves contradictions made to sound like they can co-exist (or some such).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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HaggisnNeeps
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 52 (253894)
10-21-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
10-20-2005 5:17 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
The thing that bothers me about these Fundy Christians is that they seem so weak-minded (or assume every other Christian is) that they feel the need to legislate their own beliefs - like if it wasn't illegal their beliefs wouldn't be enough to stop them doing it.
Someone needs to sit down to explain to these people that legal does not mean compulsary!!
I have no idea what the religious make-up of the US is these days but we can safely assume that there is a reasonable percentage of non-Xians. Therefore, you cannot legislate religious laws.
If something is un-Christian and you are a Christian then DON'T DO IT!
Otherwise we might as well make it illegal to be Jewish/Muslim/Atheist and be done with it.
This message has been edited by HaggisnNeeps, 10-21-2005 09:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 52 (253993)
10-22-2005 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
10-21-2005 5:30 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
the problem is that they pay too much attention to their belief that god installs leaders and destroys nations and not enough to 'give unto caesar that which is caesar's'.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-22-2005 12:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2005 5:30 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Chiroptera, posted 10-22-2005 12:08 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 52 (253996)
10-22-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by macaroniandcheese
10-22-2005 12:03 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Unless the current Caesar is one of their own -- then they are all very quick to tell the rest of us to do the rendering.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-22-2005 12:03 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 52 (254098)
10-22-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
10-21-2005 5:30 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Hello Chiroptera,
It is a matter of faith that all humans, including our leaders, are fallible.
What about when the pope speaks ex cathreda (from the chair)? He is declared to be infallable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2005 5:30 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 10-22-2005 11:12 PM bkelly has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 52 (254099)
10-22-2005 10:46 PM


what style of government
What style of government is best, secular or theoracy?
Example 1: communist USSR, secular, utter failure.
Example 2: Taliban, religious, murdered their own people for minor religious offenses. Highly oppressive. Not a good place to be.
What is your preference?
I have a strong preference for secular.
BTW: Who are the Xians?

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 10-22-2005 11:13 PM bkelly has replied
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2005 4:13 PM bkelly has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 52 (254101)
10-22-2005 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by bkelly
10-22-2005 10:36 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Hello, bkelly.
When I read the OP I assumed that FliesOnly was referring to evangelical Protestants. Certainly, I was discussing my personal experience as a fundamentalist Protestant.
Seeing that the Catholic Church has tried to exert a lot of pressure on constitutional government in Ireland and post-Communist Poland, your comments about the pope may not be irrelevant to the overall theme of this thread; however, it doesn't really apply to the US where the threat to constitutional rule of law comes from evangelical Protestants.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by bkelly, posted 10-22-2005 10:36 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by bkelly, posted 10-23-2005 2:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 52 (254102)
10-22-2005 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by bkelly
10-22-2005 10:46 PM


Re: what style of government
Example 1: communist USSR, secular, utter failure.
The USSR was not secular, but rather, theocratic - the state religion was, in fact, a deification of the state itself.
Good examples of secular countries would be any one of Europe's Scandanavian secular democracies, which enjoy standards of living consistently superior to the US's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by bkelly, posted 10-22-2005 10:46 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by bkelly, posted 10-23-2005 2:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 52 (254218)
10-23-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Chiroptera
10-22-2005 11:12 PM


Re: fundamentalist paranoia
Hello Chiroptera,
Fliesonly writes:
So let me ask this of Evangelicals Christians...
While Flies' introduction referenced quotes from Protestants, he used the two words Evangelicals Christians. From Ask.com - What's Your Question? I retrieved
www.ask.com writes:
adj: relating to or being a Christian church believing in personal conversion and the inerrancy of the Bible especially the 4 Gospels
My reading definitely does not limit this to Protestants.
However, while according to that definition the phrase Evangelical Christians is technically redundant, maybe, as you said, Flies intended for the adjective Evangelical to really refer to protestant Christians here in the United States. I really prefer to stick to the well know definition as quoted above.
OTOH: there is also the definition:
adj: marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause
Useing this definition the field is open to all ardent and zealous Christians and the term is not redundant.
Regardless, the point here should be referredt to Fliesonly.
Flies: What is your intent? Does it matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 10-22-2005 11:12 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by FliesOnly, posted 10-24-2005 7:18 AM bkelly has not replied

  
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