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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control

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Author Topic:   Gun Control
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 953 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 256 of 310 (669619)
07-31-2012 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Modulous
07-31-2012 4:31 PM


Re: opportunity, not motive
Well, I'm afraid I don't see why opening a lock is something that you really can't do if your mad enough to kill someone.
Seriously? Think back to the last time you were so mad at someone you literally saw red. Fine motor tasks? Perfect recollection of random data? Would you say that typifies your capabilities and mental state at that time?
I have no idea. But so goes the argument. It's pretty difficult to test it in practice.
Fine, so, we're all just handwaving.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Modulous, posted 07-31-2012 4:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Modulous, posted 07-31-2012 6:09 PM crashfrog has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 310 (669621)
07-31-2012 5:23 PM


Democracy 101
All of this talk about what is easier to access in the 'heat of the moment' and whether guns promote violence or not is completely irrelevant.
The issue of whether a citizenry should be allowed to arm itself or not comes down to one very simple point: It is against the very principles of democracy to empower a government over its people.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2012 6:01 PM Jon has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 258 of 310 (669623)
07-31-2012 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Jon
07-31-2012 5:23 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Jon writes:
The issue of whether a citizenry should be allowed to arm itself or not comes down to one very simple point: It is against the very principles of democracy to empower a government over its people.
The government has access to fighter jets, surface to air missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, nukes.... etc. etc.
What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 5:23 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-31-2012 6:05 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 8:01 PM Straggler has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3714 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 259 of 310 (669624)
07-31-2012 6:02 PM


makes me wonder...
If you guys are this ignorant about guns and gun topics, but you think you know what you are talking about...how many other topics on here do you not have a clue about either?

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3714 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 260 of 310 (669625)
07-31-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Straggler
07-31-2012 6:01 PM


Re: Democracy 101
What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?
All firearms.
The government has access to fighter jets, surface to air missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, nukes.... etc. etc.
We are a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. This is not Syria where our President is of a certain minortiy tribe that is allied with our religious adversaries, and is recieving weapons from them to use against us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2012 6:01 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2012 6:07 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 261 of 310 (669626)
07-31-2012 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Artemis Entreri
07-31-2012 6:05 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Jon writes:
What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?
Skunk writes:
All firearms.
Why?
Why not (for example) bazookas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-31-2012 6:05 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-01-2012 11:50 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1590 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 262 of 310 (669628)
07-31-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by crashfrog
07-31-2012 5:00 PM


Re: opportunity, not motive
Seriously? Think back to the last time you were so mad at someone you literally saw red. Fine motor tasks? Perfect recollection of random data? Would you say that typifies your capabilities and mental state at that time?
I don't think unlocking a cabinet constitutes a fine motor task. Nor does remembering a short string of numbers really constitute anything particularly difficult. And to answer the question the last time that happened was the first and only time I've completed the construction of a card pyramid using a complete pack of cards - so yeah, I think fine motor skills were in working order.
Maybe I'm the exception, but as the figures I posted indicate - somehow people overcome these difficulties you are thinking of enough times to make shooting someone in the course of an argument a major player in the overall homicide statistics while stabbing someone in the same general circumstances is rarer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2012 5:00 PM crashfrog has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 310 (669630)
07-31-2012 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Straggler
07-31-2012 6:01 PM


Re: Democracy 101
What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?
Whatever would be necessary to defend against an armed government.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2012 6:01 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 8:42 PM Jon has replied
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2012 8:43 PM Jon has replied
 Message 278 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2012 12:46 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 310 (669632)
07-31-2012 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Jon
07-31-2012 8:01 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Whatever would be necessary to defend against an armed government.
Then you've never lived in any thing like a democracy. At best, you and your circle of friends have the ability to gather up enough firepower to hold off the municipal establishment for a while. Then help gets called in. Not even Justice Scalia would interpret the constitution in a way that allows citizens the bazookas, tanks and body armor that would allow opposing the a state government let alone the feds.
You live in a representative democracy because you and your buddies control the legislature and the executive branch via the ballot box. And in the US, at least since the 1900s or so, when government officials get voted out, they don't grab firearms and oppose the citizens; they just pack their @#$% and leave office.
In fact, we can cite a number of instances in our history when people have taken up arms in order to oppose democratic processes (e.g. Wilmington insurrection of 1898). I don't see anything particularly democratic about that.
I wonder how it would have worked out if Vivien Malone had tried to shoot her way into the University of Alabama.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2012 8:54 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 267 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 10:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 537 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 265 of 310 (669633)
07-31-2012 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Jon
07-31-2012 8:01 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Whatever would be necessary to defend against an armed government.
Should everyone be able to defend themselves against an armed government? The Mafia, for example, is it desirable that they should have enough weaponry to stand off Uncle Sam?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 10:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 953 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 266 of 310 (669634)
07-31-2012 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by NoNukes
07-31-2012 8:42 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Not even Justice Scalia would interpret the constitution in a way that allows citizens the bazookas, tanks and body armor that would allow opposing the a state government let alone the feds.
Uh, wait a sec. I assure you, body armor is perfectly legal provided you're not a felon. And why shouldn't it be? Regardless of your view on whether the Second Amendment preserves the right of the people to ensure the vulnerability of their government, I can't think of any legal or democratic principle by which the government has a right to mandate the vulnerability of the people.
Whatever you think about guns, ballistic vests definitely would have saved lives in Aurora and unlike a handgun, wouldn't have posed any threat to anyone else. A government that regulates the right of law-abiding citizens to not be shot is surely one that has overstepped its bounds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 8:42 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 10:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 310 (669639)
07-31-2012 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by NoNukes
07-31-2012 8:42 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Then you've never lived in any thing like a democracy.
I'm aware of the U.S. government's oppressive hypocrisy.
You live in a representative democracy because you and your buddies control the legislature and the executive branch via the ballot box.
A piece of paper is not control.
they just pack their @#$% and leave office.
If they are following the rules. My own research, however, has shown me that tyrants are less than observant of rules respecting democratic process.
In fact, we can cite a number of instances in our history when people have taken up arms in order to oppose democratic processes (e.g. Wilmington insurrection of 1898).
Instances like the Wilmington Insurrection aren't oppositions to democratic processes; they are examples of democratic processes.
I don't see anything particularly democratic about that.
That's because you haven't studied your Greek word derivations.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 8:42 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 10:37 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 310 (669640)
07-31-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Dr Adequate
07-31-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Should everyone be able to defend themselves against an armed government?
All people should be equally empowered.
That's the point of a democracy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2012 8:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2012 4:11 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 310 (669641)
07-31-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by crashfrog
07-31-2012 8:54 PM


Re: Democracy 101
You make a valid point about vests. And you are right about federal law. But there are federal restrictions. For example export laws prevent selling body armor to at least some lawful immigrants within the US who would have enjoy most rights under the constitution. And some states do restrict the sale of body armor to face to face transactions. It is difficult to see how such laws could fall afoul of the 2nd amendment regardless unless we somehow get 9 CreationistJons on the SCt.
I still think the position that you cannot have democracy if you cannot forcibly overthrow or resist the government is silly. Perhaps I did go a bit overboard in expressing that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2012 8:54 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 270 of 310 (669642)
07-31-2012 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Jon
07-31-2012 10:18 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Instances like the Wilmington Insurrection aren't oppositions to democratic processes; they are examples of democratic processes.
*boogle*
I don't imagine there's much point in discussing this with you. The Wilmington Insurrection was a massacre triggered by a perceived insult to white women during which people were killed for racist reasons, the only black owned newspaper was burned, and the lawfully elected government was removed.
If democracy includes allowing a bunch of racists to overthrow the lawfully elected government despite being a minority in Wilmington, then perhaps we needn't consider democracy something to aspire to.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 10:18 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 10:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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