Supreme Court upholds Obamacare

I see that you have already been told that is not the case. Furthermore, Ontario has had a long struggle trying reduce the number of Americans sneaking into Ontario hospitals looking for health care.

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The fraud problem was particularly acute in cities close to the US, where 37 million people have no health insurance. According to Ontario doctors who work in these cities, many former residents who moved to the US kept a mailing address in Canada in order to obtain a health card. Some Americans who own cottages in Ontario form another group of abusers: because they have an Ontario address, they can obtain a health card. Other cases involve out-of-country visitors borrowing valid OHIP cards from friends and family members for medical treatment in Canadian emergency wards.

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SourceSo even though I don't mind helping out my poor cousins to the south I do wish you would get your shit together.

There's something you need to know about buzsaw. After having conversed with him on many occasions over the years, I've found buzsaw to have the following qualities.(1) Very christian.(2) Has no problem propagating lies, even after having been corrected many times.(3) Unapologetically anti-people's well-being for republican idealism.(4) Has no problem not apologizing for something he said that he knew was a lie.(5) Has no problem running away after confronted with facts only to come back months later and spout the same lies over again.(6) Have I mentioned he's a very christian man?Sometimes, I wonder if he's just a troll pretending to be a christian. Everything he says contradicts what Jesus actually said.But here's the kicker. Even if there are really long lines in Canada, the reason is simple. Long lines mean everyone has a shot at being treated versus leaving millions out in the cold like what we've been doing in the US. To me, leaving millions in the cold is a direct contradition to what Jesus taught, and yet here we are with buzsaw keeps spouting the same thing over and over.I really need to stop reading buzsaw's posts. Blood pressure rising again...

Hey TazYeah I think I have a pretty good fix on where Buz is coming from. Even though he looks a lot like a Poe I think he is speaking from his heart and is saying what he believes to be true. While it is hard to teach an old dog anything, hope springs eternal. Lots of others reading too. I agree it seems rather un-Christian, certainly not very charitable. The other thing is, as a Canadian I have never had to wait an unreasonable amount of time for health care. A couple hours on occasion in a crowded ER but so what. Now I am pretty healthy and don't spend a lot of time in the health care system so my experience may not be the norm. I understand that hip replacements and the like can involve some long wait times but any kind of ailment that requires immediate attention is dealt with immediately. I would bet that you couldn't find a handful of Canadians who have actually died waiting for some treatment. I suspect it is far less than die from getting treatment . Just this morning my wife called the doctor for an appointment for my daughter's ear ache. The appointment was made for 4:00pm today. If that wasn't fast enough there are walk in clinics in every town over 5,000 people. So I think the long wait arguement is mostly a myth. That and people are just too damn impatient.

I agree with Percy on this point. Buz believes what he believes without regard for the evidence. When Buz asked "Why so many" I'm sure that he did not have any particular number in mind. Many fundamentalists have no problem relegating charity to an extremely tiny compartment of their being. It's as if Mathew 25:35-46 had never been written.Matthew 25:40:

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And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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A bit off topic I guess but yeah, keep on rockin in the free world.

Your links use data from the 1990's. Here is a report that was just released that uses data from 2011, and they conclude:

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Conclusion

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In 2011, an estimated 46,159 Canadians received nonemergency medical treatment outside Canada. In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology. In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability. Clearly, the number of Canadians who ultimately receive their medical care in other countries is not insignificant.

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What does it mean when the doctors are against it?Almost 90% of them think medicine is on the wrong track.
Over 80% are thinking about quitting.
Over 60% say its getting harder to adhere to the Hippocratic oath.From a recent survey of doctorsLooks bad to me.

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Here's the general concludions and key findings from an article about the survey:

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GENERAL CONCLUSIONS:

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1.Almost unanimous that medicine is on the wrong track, and overwhelmingly blame the government;
2.Government-imposed solutions (PPACA, electronic health information) destined to fail;
3.Highest numbers ever opting out of Medicare or refuse Medicaid;
4.Vacuum in leadership in medical profession, feel abandoned by AMA & organized medicine;
5.Corporate medicine (including hospital and insurance companies) is intentionally trying to destroy private practice;
6.Doctors are pessimistic - failing financially & assume things will worsen;
7.See doctors and patients as the solution - not government;
8.Believe direct payment by patients will restore accountability & patient control;
9.Restored autonomy, elimination of government involvement, increased patient responsibility and free market reforms are solutions.

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KEY FINDINGS

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90% say the medical system is on the WRONG TRACK
83% say they are thinking about QUITTING
61% say the system challenges their ETHICS
85% say the patient-physician relationship is in a TAILSPIN
65% say GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT is most to blame for current problems
72% say individual insurance mandate will NOT result in improved access care
49% say they will STOP accepting Medicaid patients
74% say they will STOP ACCEPTING Medicare patients, or leave Medicare completely
52% say they would rather treat some Medicaid/Medicare patient for FREE
57% give the AMA a FAILING GRADE representing them
1 out of 3 doctors is HESITANT to voice their opinion
2 out of 3 say they are JUST SQUEAKING BY OR IN THE RED financially
95% say private practice is losing out to CORPORATE MEDICINE
80% say DOCTORS/MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS are most likely to help solve things
70% say REDUCING GOVERNMENT would be single best fix.

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Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

When I look at doctors as a group I don't see them working on a solution for affordable health care for all americans. They whinge, but refuse to engage.

So? Does that make their complaints unfounded?

That Comically Awful Doctor Survey And The State of Right-Wing Propaganda | Media Matters for AmericaI gather from the article that this was a blast fax w/ a 4% response rate. How accurate can those numbers really be? Color me skeptical.

But this is really two statistics rolled into one, because it includes those "sent out of country by the public health care system due to a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided in their home jurisdiction".That would actually be a point in favor of the Canadian system. If you needed a surgery that only the Japanese knew how to perform, wouldn't it be a good thing if your HMO paid to for you to go to Japan and have the surgery?For bonus points, what are the odds that they'd do so?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

At least you could have used a non-partisan groups study that wasn't using questionable methodology. Fraser Institute

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It has been described as politically conservative and right-libertarian....

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and envisions "a free and prosperous world where individuals benefit from greater choice, competitive markets, and personal responsibility".

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Their methodology is no different than creationism. They are looking for evidence to back up their goals. They are not following evidence to a conclusion. They have their conclusion and are looking for anything, even playing with statistics, to "prove" their stance.Their 'evidence" is a "waiting list survey" that they send to physicians. There is no independent verification of this data. Is it not possible that only like minded physicians participate? I know if my wife received a survey from the Heritage Institute she would throw it away. Without a a more comprehensive review of the methodology their numbers mean nothing.But there are huge other factors too.Look at their references. Not a single one is an independent reference. The author uses himself as a reference. Everyone of them refers to a Fraser Institute document.Now lets look at the figures. 43,000 Canadians sought care outside of Canada. Canada has a population of about 33 million. I will let you figure the percentage. So if the Fraser institutes #'s a correct then miniscule # of Canadians are seeking healthcare out of Canada. Which is in direct support of my arguments and the links I provided. Thank you.Now lets look at another point of this "study". You are using it to support the notion that Canadians are fleeing to the US for healthcare. I do not see anything about the US in your link. So this is of absolutely no support of your argument.More info about Canadians coming to the US. Link

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Agreements between Detroit hospitals and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for heart, imaging tests, bariatric and other services provide access to some services not immediately available in the province, said ministry spokesman David Jensen.

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The agreements show how a country with a national care system -- a proposal not part of the health care changes under discussion in Congress -- copes with demand for care with U.S. partnerships, rather than building new facilities.

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Michael Vujovich, 61, of Windsor was taken to Detroit's Henry Ford Hospital for an angioplasty procedure after he went to a Windsor hospital in April. Vujovich said the U.S. backup doesn't show a gap in Canada's system, but shows how it works.

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"I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry.

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Its a feature of their healthcare, not a problem. Do you think you could get an angioplasty for $38,000?A little aside. LinkIf you look at the full text you will see they use valid references and clearly describe their methodology.So any evidence at all that Canadians are coming over to the US in droves for healthcare? Any evidence at all that a significant percentage of Canadians prefer the US system as opposed to theirs?

Setting aside that this "study" has already been debunked - since payments to doctors are the number 1 driver of high medical costs, wouldn't they be against any reform that would address high medical costs?

Really? really?Have you stooped so low? This wasn't a survey it is propaganda.
4% response on a fax blast? Come on CS, you can do better than this.
Also the conclusions they reach are not supported by the questions in the survey.Will you even follow the media matters link provided to actually look at the substantial criticisms of this propaganda? The media matters link even links to their "methodology". It is quite a hoot.

Really? You berate Buz for not having a source and when a source is provided you Poison the Well. tsk tsk Which was your methodology as well. Buz made a claim that you wanted to prove wrong so you claim you refuted it by Googling up some data from ~15 years ago You forgot the biggest factor: their results don't agree with your preconceived notion. Better attack the source! Actually, a better percentage would be that of those seeking medical attention rather than that of the entire population. Of the times that people went to other countries, what percentage do you think were to the US? More than 90%? Meh. Apples and Oranges. Those countries have a fraction of the population that we do. Why? You want to poison some more wells?