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Author Topic:   Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 65 (663025)
05-20-2012 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
05-19-2012 10:31 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
crashfrog writes:
Then you've committed the fallacy of the looming caveat; crystals are incredibly common, most elements and compounds can be induced to adopt a crystalline structure under quite prosaic conditions, and usually they do so because the enthalpy change of the system under those conditions as it crystalizes exceeds the entropy loss.
That happens all over the place, Buz, and it's not just something you can sweepingly dismiss with a "by and large." It's a direct and omnipresent counterexample that you can't just pretend is nonexistent.
Apples & oranges, Crashfrog. The forming of crystals involves a lot less time, and work. On the other hand, the creation of a complex human body from chaotic dirt would require intelligent planning and work. To apply life, soul and spirit to the formed body would requre more complex work. The formation of crystals, etc, requires no intellgent planning or thought, nor does it involve life.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 05-19-2012 10:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 65 (663026)
05-20-2012 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
05-20-2012 7:25 AM


Re: Evidence of Observed Phenomena
tangle writes:
Simply saying it's so, doesn't make it so, Buz.
You keep claiming to have provided evidence for the belief in a creationist god, but so far I haven't seen any that counts as real evidence - just spectulation and assumption plus a huge pile of many times refuted error.
What's your best shot at real evidence?
Thanks for making my point, Tangle. You catagorically and dogmatically deny the cited evidence. All one need do is check out my 8 year profile and review all of the evidence cited. None of this cited evidence will ever be acknowledged by you. To do so sould refute your own positions which run counter to Ocam's Razor.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 05-20-2012 7:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2012 3:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 65 (663027)
05-20-2012 8:05 AM


Topics related to the creation/evolution debate must be submitted for consideration to the Proposed New Topics forum. I'm closing this thread and moving it to Proposed New Topics now.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 34 of 65 (663028)
05-20-2012 8:05 AM


Thread Copied from Coffee House Forum
Thread copied here from the Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC thread in the Coffee House forum.

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 65 (663029)
05-20-2012 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Hi Buz,
This is an interesting topic proposal, but since you wouldn't be able to participate I see no point in promoting it.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2012 3:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 65 (663030)
05-20-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Buz's Final Evo Butt Kicker As Per Thread Topic; Ocam's Razor.
I figured it would be a matter of time before I am banned from butt kicking the pitifully inept science sheeple EvC constituency. Carry on, my friends. :

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 65 (663031)
05-20-2012 7:54 PM


FreeForAll?
Any chance this could be promoted in FreeForAll, Admin?

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 38 of 65 (663033)
05-20-2012 8:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 05-20-2012 10:06 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 65 (663038)
05-20-2012 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
05-20-2012 4:14 AM


Sure, like I said, Occam (or, some would say, common sense) will help you prioritise hypotheses and it would correctly claim that the dog is by far the simpest and most likely solution. But it proves nothing.
To prove Occam's preferrence that 'it was the dog wot done done it, yer honour', science would examine the contents of its stomach to find the evidence.
Well, that would be a help. But what if the fairy magicked the pizza into the dog's stomach to frame the dog?
Insofar as anything is proved it is proved by the (usually tacit) application of Occam's razor to remove extraneous entities.
Another example, slightly different in its construction. Consider the theory of gravity. All the observations we can make (and note that their are many that we can't) support the theory, which is therefore (provisionally) taken as confirmed.
OK, but now add to that theory the theory that there are aliens in the Alpha Centauri system. Now, again, all the observations we can make (and note that their are many that we can't) support the gravity + aliens theory. Do we take this to be confirmed? Are elliptical orbits proof of aliens in the Centauri system? No, they aren't. And again, the reason is that all the data we have are explicable in terms of a proper subset of gravity + aliens, namely gravity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 05-20-2012 4:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2012 3:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 65 (663039)
05-20-2012 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Admin
05-20-2012 8:33 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum:
Admin writes:
Thread copied here from the Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
YES! Thanks very much, Admin for promotoing this where I can do more damage to the 1deology of my counterparts.
Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Admin, posted 05-20-2012 8:33 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 41 of 65 (663060)
05-21-2012 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
05-20-2012 9:45 PM


Dr. A writes:
Well, that would be a help. But what if the fairy magicked the pizza into the dog's stomach to frame the dog?
If that had happened, we'd be none the wiser with or without Mr Occam.
OK, but now add to that theory the theory that there are aliens in the Alpha Centauri system. Now, again, all the observations we can make (and note that their are many that we can't) support the gravity + aliens theory. Do we take this to be confirmed? Are elliptical orbits proof of aliens in the Centauri system? No, they aren't. And again, the reason is that all the data we have are explicable in terms of a proper subset of gravity + aliens, namely gravity.
If Occam is telling us that if we've already got an answer that satisfies us, it's safe to ignore the preposterous until we have sufficient evidence to consider it, I'm happy to nod agreeably and move on. But if he's saying that he can actually prove anything from first principles with his razor, I'm still waiting to be show how he's going to do it using argument alone.
In your example above, science simply shrugs and says 'I'm fine with my answer, show me the aliens'. It doesn't say 'My answer is simpler therefore it's correct.'

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-20-2012 9:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2012 5:40 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 42 of 65 (663061)
05-21-2012 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
05-20-2012 7:56 AM


Re: Evidence of Observed Phenomena
Buz writes:
Thanks for making my point, Tangle. You catagorically and dogmatically deny the cited evidence. All one need do is check out my 8 year profile and review all of the evidence cited. None of this cited evidence will ever be acknowledged by you. To do so sould refute your own positions which run counter to Ocam's Razor.
I'm not denying your evidence Buz, I'm saying that I haven't seen you present any yet - what I have seen is biblical quotes, assertions and supposition. Telling me to read 8 years of your posts doesn't help me.
That has sod all to do with Mr Occam.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 05-20-2012 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 43 of 65 (663071)
05-21-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
05-20-2012 7:47 AM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
The forming of crystals involves a lot less time, and work.
Well, that's untrue. There are crystals that form incredibly quickly, some that form incredibly slowly, and much in between. Below New Mexico is the world's slowest-growing crystal, which has grown at a rate of 40 microns per century for several million years.
As we're trying to tell you, crystals aren't something you can sweepingly brush aside and claim that order doesn't form from chaos. Order forms from chaos all the time, and we understand the phenomenon so well that we know exactly under what circumstances that will occur - when the system, in doing so, can undergo a favorable change in enthalpy that offsets the unfavorable decrease in entropy.
The formation of crystals, etc, requires no intellgent planning or thought, nor does it involve life.
Life is, fundamentally, a crystalline phenomenon; it's also a phenomenon where a favorable change in chemical free energy frequently offsets an unfavorable decrease in entropy. It's a simple principle.
On the other hand, the creation of a complex human body from chaotic dirt would require intelligent planning and work.
It would, I guess, but the Book of Genesis is the only place where human bodies formed from dirt. In the real world, they form from other human bodies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 05-20-2012 7:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9974
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 44 of 65 (663096)
05-21-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc.
The simplest explanation being the one with the fewest unevidenced assumptions. ID/creationism fails this test being that it assumes the existence of God for which there is no evidence.
1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.
No it doesn't. The first law states:
quote:
Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/...rabee/biobk/biobookener1.html
Nowhere does the law state that energy is infinite, only that energy is conserved.
2. According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form.
Jehovah is not evidenced, therefore it is sliced away by Occam's Razor.
3. As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Barns do not emerge from forests to structures, books, void of ID. Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc
Yes, chaos does progress to order. In fact, order from chaos seems to be the rule, not the exception. Trees take elements from the environment and turn them into ordered systems, all without any intelligence involved. We also have evidence for barn builders and tool makers, and yet none for your universe maker.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(4)
Message 45 of 65 (663101)
05-21-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Hey Buz,
1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.
If time stretched infinitely into the past, and energy/mass can neither be created nor destroyed, and entropy within the closed system of the Universe can only ever increase...
The Universe would have entered what we call "heat death" an infinite amount of time int he past.
"Heat death" refers to a state in which the Universe has no more available energy; that is, all potential energy is used up, there are no more energy differentials any more from one location in space to the next, the energy distribution of the Universe is flat.
The stars would have burned out. All of them. Even black holes would have completely evaporated.
It's inevitable within a closed system, given sufficient time. And with infinite time, it would have already happened...an infinite amount f time ago. We wouldn't exist.
This is why modern astrophysics considers there to have been an absolute minimum value of time, which we popularly refer to as "T=0." There has to be a minimum value, time cannot simply stretch infinitely into the past, because that would result in a Universe completely different from the one we actually observe.
Your basic arguments are once again based on fundamental misconceptions regarding physics.
And, of course - crystals. Order does spontaneously form from chaos. Happens all the time. Ever snowflake, every ice cube in my freezer, the diamond on my fiance's finger, the quartz crystals in your granite counter top...all examples of disorder naturally and spontaneously forming into a significantly ordered form. Which leaves aside life, of course - life existing by taking disorganized matter and energy from the environment and using it to grow, live, and reproduce, all without any intelligent guidance required.
A tree doesn't have a brain...but its structure, from individual cell to the entire trunk and canopy of leaves is far more ordered than the haphazard chaotic distribution of elements and molecules in the air and soil.
You're just wrong, Buz. Completely. So completely that it's clear you just don't understand even the most basic concepts you're trying to discuss.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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