The Bible: Is the Author God, Man or Both?

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Essentially he is saying that it could have been that way or it could just be them doing their best to put into words something they had no language for.

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No, he is saying that it was that way. Read the article.

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In a sense this goes to the heart of my understanding of the NT accounts. Yes the books of the NT are either specific letters or as in the case of the Gospels they are compilations of earlier writings and oral accounts put together to form a complete narrative. Yes, there would have been interpretation of what it all meant and there would be disagreement.

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The point is that Christian use of the OT need not be in agreement with Jewsih thought at all.

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We read through the Gospels and see consistently that the disciples just didn’t get it. We have them arguing over who is going to sit at His right and left hand where they clearly have the idea that Jesus is going to lead them in a successful revolution with the help of Yahweh. There are times when they seem to be getting it but in a sense they are projecting on to Jesus their own aspirations.

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I will agree that the disciples understanding of Jesus' mission while Jesus was alive is quite different from the view taken by later Christians.

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Initially there didn’t seem to be a great need to write about things as the eye witnesses would still have been around, but as the years passed it became obvious that they would require the stories to be documented. In these stories they would be influenced by their own understanding of what was to be understood about the meaning of the resurrection was and what message it was that Jesus taught and how they were to react to it. I’m sure there are some stories that were distorted with the result that there are inconsistencies in the various accounts. As I’ve said before I would be far more distrustful of stories that were completely congruous.

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Another important reason that little was written down early on is that the end of the world was thought to be imminent. And in that time the story grew, and grew - and carried on growing, as we can see just be comparing Mark to Matthew.And let's be honest your "reason" for trusting the Gospels is just a hollow excuse based on ignoring the facts.

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Things haven’t changed today. Just as our knowledge of the natural world continues to grow it is my belief that through good scholarship our knowledge of what Christ’s life meant for the world continues to grow. Just as modern scientists build their knowledge on the findings and even the errors of their predecessors, modern theological scholars build on the work of their predecessors.

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So far as I can tell Jesus life meant nothing much to the world today. Even his failure and death meant. Wry little in themselves.

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I don’t agree that there was a violent side to His ministry unless you are talking about knocking around a few tables. He did agree that His message would result in divisions even in families.

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And telling his disciples to arm themselves.And don't forget that the view of the Gospels is anti-Jewish and largely pro-Roman. It is entirely likely that the violent side is played down.

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Our thoughts on Judas are mere speculation but I think that there would be a strong likelihood that He viewed Jesus as someone who would be a thorn in the side of the revolutionaries. Of course maybe he was just being mercenary.

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I don't think that you can justify that claimEqually, until N T Wright can actually address my idea of events, I can't take his claim that there is no viable alternative seriously. Indeed it looks to me as if he's just another apologist, and his opinion has much more to do with his biases than any scholarship.

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It is not that I’m ignoring them. I do however understand that the accounts are written by fallible humans doing their best to convey the truth of what happened.

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Of course the problem is that you ARE ignoring them...

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Interesting article and there is no doubt it happens. The question of course is that what happened to the disciples.

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I just don't think that the argument for it being the case holds up. I don't see it as something that they would have imagined to be the case, or even something that they would have desired to have happen.

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Obviously the disciples would have been in a state where they would have been suffering from cognitive dissonance.Equally obviously the idea that Jesus was somehow alive and would return to fulfil the Messianic prophecies would have resolved that dissonance.It is also true that quite common events could have lead to the idea that Jesus was still alive.Where do you think the case falls down?

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I also believe that if it was a case of cognitive dissonance that the eventual narratives would read very differently. For example it wouldn't show the disciples as being such dolts and for that matter in showing Peter, one of their primary spokesmen, as behaving so cowardly.

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In fact if cognitive dissonance were involved it might well do precisely that. The old understanding - held while Jesus still lived - would be portrayed as foolish and wrong.The "cowardice" is also exactly what we might see if the disciples WERE suffering from cognitive dissonance. Things had gone badly wrong, they don't know what to do, their faith is shaken...Not to mention the obvious fact that the Gospel writers might have an agenda of their own, which you would need to take into account...

I don't see how the term "cognitive dissonance" has any relevance to the issue.

Relevant to what issue? Surely one of the issues at stake is the accuracy of the Bible. We have here an example of GDR acting like the Inerrantists, closing his mind and inventing excuses to maintain his false belief (in this case that the evidence strongly supports the claim that there must have been a literal bodily resurrection).

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But even if that were true, it is not an example of "cognitive dissonance" and so far you have not shown any evidence that GDR suffers from cognitive dissonance.

If you can't be bothered to follow the conversation you can't expect to understand it.

I have followed the conversation but believe you are simply incorrect in claiming that GDR shows "cognitive dissonance".Where do you see GDR holding two mutually exclusive beliefs?

Perhaps you could show where I made that claim, if I did, it certainly wasn't in any of the posts you replied to?

Pardon me, it was the disciples you were referring to in that post and not GDR.The case still stands.How were the disciples showing 'cognitive dissonance'?

If you had been following the conversation you would understand the point. Of course you would also not have made the error of thinking that I was talking about GDR.However, if you accept that the Disciples strongly believed that Jesus was the MessiahAnd if you accept that Jesus was arrested and executed by the Romans instead of fulfilling the Messianic prophecies.Then it follows that they would have been suffering from cognitive dissonance at that point.

Of course I have been following along and still I made an error.Deal with it.However I think your assumption is totally unfounded.In fact, I'd say that the various Gospel stories (and the Epistles) show the disciples (and the Apostles), far from suffering from cognitive dissonance, were dealing with reality rather well.If we begin with that classic idea of a Jewish Messiah, one who will rise up, throw out the overlords and lead Israel to an Independent status, then Jesus death would have quashed that idea.But then almost immediately the disciples experience the Resurrection, and so the concept of what a Messiah would be changed to fit the new reality. No cognitive dissonance there.It's pretty clear that the first generation of followers, disciples and Apostles, believed that the world would end within their lifetime. But it became clear that was not going to happen so again they revised their expectations; they moved Jesus return (the Second Coming) to an indefinite period in the future. Again, far from cognitive dissonance.In each case, whether you are looking at Gospels or Epistles, what is seen is evolution. When beliefs are shown to be wrong they changed the beliefs instead of trying to hold two mutually exclusive beliefs.So where do you see the 'cognitive dissonance'?

So let's get this straight. Like GDR you reject my argument out of hand for no valid reason.Well that was really worth butting into the conversation to get me to repeat points already made...

Actually, I did not reject your argument out of hand although I'll admit using my hand to hide my laugh.I also thought I did give valid reasoning in a simple step by step fashion.I've read you posts in the thread and gotta say that I don't see where you did make the points you seem to think you've made, which is why I asked to try to get you to clarify your position.So where do you see the 'cognitive dissonance'?

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Actually, I did not reject your argument out of hand although I'll admit using my hand to hide my laugh.

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In fact you did reject it out of hand. But then I've seen no sign that you even understand it.

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I also thought I did give valid reasoning in a simple step by step fashion.

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As far as I can tell your argument is that the Disciples' cognitive dissonance was resolved by the Resurrection, therefore they didn't suffer from cognitive dissonance. And without bothering to offer any reasoning to support the idea of an actual Resurrection. That's not valid reasoning.

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I've read you posts in the thread and gotta say that I don't see where you did make the points you seem to think you've made, which is why I asked to try to get you to clarify your position.

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The evidence of your posts says that you haven't bothered to do that. And I've been giving you the clarification you have actually asked for, but apparently it contradicts your beliefs so it must be wrong...