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Author | Topic: More Awesome Obama . . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Jar, it would be useful for you to read ALL of my post. A little effort please.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Read that and so I repeat the question. What should US Citizens worry about over US Drone bases?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Thanks for writing Jar.
Management seriously appreciates your taking the time and effort to address this on-going concern. A committee will be formed to address your query, and their conclusion (in the shape of an un-manned missile), will be sent to your home address as soon as possible. Thanks again. Edited by dronester, : added the irony
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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CS says:
What is unclear is how these articles are showing "war crimes". Indeed. Is an act of war, in and of itself, a war crime? When I think of the concept "war crime", the first things that come to mind are the Holocaust, Felix Mengele, Stalin & such. The Mai Lai Massacre. Then Pol Pot. Then the small-pox blankets given native americans. Then Bosnia. Then various things going on in Africa and so forth. But somehow these drones don't yet rise to that kind of level. They are not on the same level as genocide. Certainly I can agree in principle with the Dronester droning on about drones - they are UNDESIRABLE from the standpoint of civilization, as is war itself. They are currently bad at confining damage, but better than the bombing of Dresden, for example. An outrage, yes - but if the objections are given too much hyperbole, then they are more likely to FAIL in the good goal of ending their usage. Maybe take a look at 911. Was that a war crime? It certainly was interpreted as an act of war and was defining the concept of the "War On Terror" by those in power in the USA. Pearl Harbor? was that a war crime? For me, the whole concept of a "war crime" as something that is even worse than war, itself, is approaching the notion of splitting hairs. If you were to asks me, I'd lean to the idea that all acts of war are ultimately war crimes. But perhaps a strong majority of humans in our civilized countries might still be holding a special place in Hell for those would commit atrocities at the level of what is commonly held today to be a war crime. And if you want to stop drones, using a hyperbole like this will probably do less good than it could. Edited by xongsmith, : asks not but says- xongsmith, 5.7d
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined:
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What numbers qualify for genocide Xong?
Xong writes: But somehow these drones don't yet rise to that kind of level. They are not on the same level as genocide. quote: quote:
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
CS, give me a clue, are you only quibbling about semantics or a wishfully arguable legal definition? I'm trying to figure out if you're actually discussing something that is really happening, or just using hyperbolic spin to smear the president. But I think I have my answer, and its the latter.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Indeed. Is an act of war, in and of itself, a war crime? No, its not. This is just hyperbolic spin... move along.
And if you want to stop drones, using a hyperbole like this will probably do less good than it could. Indeed. He's basically lost all credibility. I'm inclined to believe the opposite of what he's posted.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Well, the way you were beating around the bush, I kinda knew you weren't serious about an actual answer.
In the future, do us both a favor and ignore my posts. thanks
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Wait. What? Genocide?
Precisely what cultural or ethnic group is being systematically wiped out here? Are you seriously asserting that the intent of drone strikes is to perpetrate genocide? I'm as upset about the loss of innocent life as anyone, and probably more upset about the killing of even the guilty than most, but genocide means an awful lot more than "civilians were killed," and it's not a matter of numbers, either. Not to mention the fact that, if you were actually trying to commit genocide, drone strikes are nearly as inefficient as snipers in wiping out entire populations. It would be stupid, even if that were your goal. The killing of innocent civilians is an absolute tragedy and should be condemned, but screaming "genocide" when no reasonable definition of genocide is met is just a shade separated from Godwin's Law.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Please calm down Rahvin.
It was only the number (quantity) that I was focusing about Xong's post.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Well, the way you were beating around the bush, I kinda knew you weren't serious about an actual answer. But I was, you just chose not to answer my questions. What do you mean by "war crime"? What makes the things that are described in those articles count as war crimes?
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Please calm down Rahvin. The irony of being told to "calm down" by a person who brought up genocide in reference to drone attacks is not lost on me.
It was only the number (quantity) that I was focusing about Xong's post. So why use the word "genocide?" That word has nothing to do with quantities, it has to do with attempting to murder an entire cultural, ethnic or racial subgroup. But beyond all of that, dronester... Civilians get killed in war zones, and while it;s terrible and tragic and should be avoided whenever possible and is one of the reasons we shouldn't engage in wars unless they're absolutely necessary in the first place...civilian deaths in wartime are not necessarily war crimes. If you specifically target innocent civilians, then that's a war crime. When you kill civilians in the process of attacking a legitimate enemy military target (in good faith, even if it turns out you're wrong), it's not a war crime. It's still a tragedy, it's still a fuckup, it should be investigated to ensure due diligence was done in target selection and attack, it should still weigh heavily on the conscience of any drone controller and any other individual involved, but it won't get you sent to the Hague. If I had to kill a dozen civilians in a drone attack to kill a known leader of a genocide, for instance, I wouldn't be committing a war crime. Killing 13 people, 12 of them innocent, to potentially save thousands or more is regrettable but acceptable collateral damage. It's still horrible, but sometimes the least-bad option is still ethically reprehensible and has to be done anyway to prevent something worse.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Rahvin writes: The irony of being told to "calm down" by a person who brought up genocide in reference to drone attacks is not lost on me. In an effort to crucify me, you are acting like CS. 1. No, I did NOT bring up genocide. Xong did with message Message 19. Sheesh. 2. My examples clearly showed that it was the numbers that I was arguing about. 3. I used the The Mai Lai MASSACRE as a counter to the drone attacks, not the The Mai Lai GENOCIDE. 4. Yes, in addition to your example of willfully killing 12 innocents, I am also aware that you would purposely kill hundreds of thousands of civilians by atomic bombs in merely WISHFUL HOPES of saving some american troops. I think you are horribly wrong for both examples. After ten years of your failed strategy in Afghanistan you should embrace the inarguable conclusion that you are utterly wrong.
Rahvin writes: If you specifically target innocent civilians, then that's a war crime. When you kill civilians in the process of attacking a legitimate enemy military target (in good faith, even if it turns out you're wrong), it's not a war crime. No, not if it is done repeatedly:
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
In the future, do us both a favor and ignore my posts.
Please.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well . . . , since it couldn't, maybe it would've been more useful for you to post something more recent and germane to the topic? It's incredibly germane to the topic, since it indicates that these drone strikes within Pakistan are occurring at Pakistan's request.
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