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Author Topic:   More Awesome Obama . . .
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 16 of 103 (661225)
05-03-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
05-03-2012 1:03 PM


Re: why worry?
Jar, it would be useful for you to read ALL of my post. A little effort please.
quote:
Remember the NDAA bill passed last year, and signed quietly into law on New Year’s eve by President Obama? The Administration assured one and all that it would not apply to military operations on U.S. soil or against American Citizens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 05-03-2012 1:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-03-2012 1:18 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 103 (661226)
05-03-2012 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dronestar
05-03-2012 1:12 PM


Re: why worry?
Read that and so I repeat the question. What should US Citizens worry about over US Drone bases?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:12 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:26 PM jar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 18 of 103 (661227)
05-03-2012 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-03-2012 1:18 PM


Re: why worry?
Thanks for writing Jar.
Management seriously appreciates your taking the time and effort to address this on-going concern.
A committee will be formed to address your query, and their conclusion (in the shape of an un-manned missile), will be sent to your home address as soon as possible.
Thanks again.
Edited by dronester, : added the irony

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-03-2012 1:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-03-2012 4:47 PM dronestar has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 19 of 103 (661228)
05-03-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2012 12:39 PM


CS says:
What is unclear is how these articles are showing "war crimes".
Indeed. Is an act of war, in and of itself, a war crime? When I think of the concept "war crime", the first things that come to mind are the Holocaust, Felix Mengele, Stalin & such. The Mai Lai Massacre. Then Pol Pot. Then the small-pox blankets given native americans. Then Bosnia. Then various things going on in Africa and so forth. But somehow these drones don't yet rise to that kind of level. They are not on the same level as genocide.
Certainly I can agree in principle with the Dronester droning on about drones - they are UNDESIRABLE from the standpoint of civilization, as is war itself. They are currently bad at confining damage, but better than the bombing of Dresden, for example. An outrage, yes - but if the objections are given too much hyperbole, then they are more likely to FAIL in the good goal of ending their usage.
Maybe take a look at 911. Was that a war crime? It certainly was interpreted as an act of war and was defining the concept of the "War On Terror" by those in power in the USA. Pearl Harbor? was that a war crime?
For me, the whole concept of a "war crime" as something that is even worse than war, itself, is approaching the notion of splitting hairs. If you were to asks me, I'd lean to the idea that all acts of war are ultimately war crimes. But perhaps a strong majority of humans in our civilized countries might still be holding a special place in Hell for those would commit atrocities at the level of what is commonly held today to be a war crime. And if you want to stop drones, using a hyperbole like this will probably do less good than it could.
Edited by xongsmith, : asks not but says

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:42 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 1:47 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 20 of 103 (661230)
05-03-2012 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by xongsmith
05-03-2012 1:29 PM


genocide
What numbers qualify for genocide Xong?
Xong writes:
But somehow these drones don't yet rise to that kind of level. They are not on the same level as genocide.
quote:
The UK-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism is the group that keeps the best count of casualties from U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. According to its figures, since 2004, U.S. has killed between about 2,500-3,000 people in Pakistan. Of those, between 479 and 811 were civilians, 174 of them children.
Shahzad Akbar, a Pakistani lawyer who has been representing drone victims and who started the group Foundation for Fundamental Rights, disputes even these figures and claims that the vast majority of those killed are ordinary civilians.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
quote:
My_Lai_Massacre was the Vietnam War mass murder of between 347 and 504 unarmed civilians
M Lai massacre - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 103 (661231)
05-03-2012 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dronestar
05-03-2012 1:07 PM


Re: "war crimes"
CS, give me a clue, are you only quibbling about semantics or a wishfully arguable legal definition?
I'm trying to figure out if you're actually discussing something that is really happening, or just using hyperbolic spin to smear the president.
But I think I have my answer, and its the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:07 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 22 of 103 (661233)
05-03-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by xongsmith
05-03-2012 1:29 PM


Indeed. Is an act of war, in and of itself, a war crime?
No, its not.
This is just hyperbolic spin... move along.
And if you want to stop drones, using a hyperbole like this will probably do less good than it could.
Indeed. He's basically lost all credibility. I'm inclined to believe the opposite of what he's posted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by xongsmith, posted 05-03-2012 1:29 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 23 of 103 (661235)
05-03-2012 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2012 1:43 PM


Re: "war crimes"
Well, the way you were beating around the bush, I kinda knew you weren't serious about an actual answer.
In the future, do us both a favor and ignore my posts.
thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 1:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 2:09 PM dronestar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 24 of 103 (661236)
05-03-2012 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dronestar
05-03-2012 1:42 PM


Re: genocide
Wait. What? Genocide?
Precisely what cultural or ethnic group is being systematically wiped out here? Are you seriously asserting that the intent of drone strikes is to perpetrate genocide?
I'm as upset about the loss of innocent life as anyone, and probably more upset about the killing of even the guilty than most, but genocide means an awful lot more than "civilians were killed," and it's not a matter of numbers, either.
Not to mention the fact that, if you were actually trying to commit genocide, drone strikes are nearly as inefficient as snipers in wiping out entire populations. It would be stupid, even if that were your goal.
The killing of innocent civilians is an absolute tragedy and should be condemned, but screaming "genocide" when no reasonable definition of genocide is met is just a shade separated from Godwin's Law.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:42 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 2:04 PM Rahvin has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 25 of 103 (661237)
05-03-2012 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rahvin
05-03-2012 2:01 PM


Re: genocide
Please calm down Rahvin.
It was only the number (quantity) that I was focusing about Xong's post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Rahvin, posted 05-03-2012 2:01 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Rahvin, posted 05-03-2012 2:27 PM dronestar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 103 (661239)
05-03-2012 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by dronestar
05-03-2012 1:59 PM


Re: "war crimes"
Well, the way you were beating around the bush, I kinda knew you weren't serious about an actual answer.
But I was, you just chose not to answer my questions.
What do you mean by "war crime"?
What makes the things that are described in those articles count as war crimes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 1:59 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 2:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 27 of 103 (661243)
05-03-2012 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dronestar
05-03-2012 2:04 PM


Re: genocide
Please calm down Rahvin.
The irony of being told to "calm down" by a person who brought up genocide in reference to drone attacks is not lost on me.
It was only the number (quantity) that I was focusing about Xong's post.
So why use the word "genocide?" That word has nothing to do with quantities, it has to do with attempting to murder an entire cultural, ethnic or racial subgroup.
But beyond all of that, dronester...
Civilians get killed in war zones, and while it;s terrible and tragic and should be avoided whenever possible and is one of the reasons we shouldn't engage in wars unless they're absolutely necessary in the first place...civilian deaths in wartime are not necessarily war crimes. If you specifically target innocent civilians, then that's a war crime. When you kill civilians in the process of attacking a legitimate enemy military target (in good faith, even if it turns out you're wrong), it's not a war crime. It's still a tragedy, it's still a fuckup, it should be investigated to ensure due diligence was done in target selection and attack, it should still weigh heavily on the conscience of any drone controller and any other individual involved, but it won't get you sent to the Hague.
If I had to kill a dozen civilians in a drone attack to kill a known leader of a genocide, for instance, I wouldn't be committing a war crime. Killing 13 people, 12 of them innocent, to potentially save thousands or more is regrettable but acceptable collateral damage. It's still horrible, but sometimes the least-bad option is still ethically reprehensible and has to be done anyway to prevent something worse.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 2:04 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 2:58 PM Rahvin has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 28 of 103 (661250)
05-03-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rahvin
05-03-2012 2:27 PM


Re: genocide
Rahvin writes:
The irony of being told to "calm down" by a person who brought up genocide in reference to drone attacks is not lost on me.
In an effort to crucify me, you are acting like CS.
1. No, I did NOT bring up genocide. Xong did with message Message 19. Sheesh.
2. My examples clearly showed that it was the numbers that I was arguing about.
3. I used the The Mai Lai MASSACRE as a counter to the drone attacks, not the The Mai Lai GENOCIDE.
4. Yes, in addition to your example of willfully killing 12 innocents, I am also aware that you would purposely kill hundreds of thousands of civilians by atomic bombs in merely WISHFUL HOPES of saving some american troops. I think you are horribly wrong for both examples. After ten years of your failed strategy in Afghanistan you should embrace the inarguable conclusion that you are utterly wrong.
Rahvin writes:
If you specifically target innocent civilians, then that's a war crime. When you kill civilians in the process of attacking a legitimate enemy military target (in good faith, even if it turns out you're wrong), it's not a war crime.
No, not if it is done repeatedly:
quote:
war of aggression (which is "a crime against international peace"). Acts of aggression are defined as armed invasions or attacks, bombardments, blockades, armed violations of territory, permitting other states to use one's own territory to perpetrate acts of aggression and the employment of armed irregulars or mercenaries to carry out acts of aggression. A WAR of aggression is a SERIES of actS committed with a sustained intent.
War of aggression - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rahvin, posted 05-03-2012 2:27 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Rahvin, posted 05-03-2012 5:11 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 29 of 103 (661252)
05-03-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2012 2:09 PM


Re: "war crimes"
In the future, do us both a favor and ignore my posts.
Please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 2:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2012 3:22 PM dronestar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 103 (661254)
05-03-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dronestar
05-03-2012 12:52 PM


Re: in '08???
Well . . . , since it couldn't, maybe it would've been more useful for you to post something more recent and germane to the topic?
It's incredibly germane to the topic, since it indicates that these drone strikes within Pakistan are occurring at Pakistan's request.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 12:52 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by dronestar, posted 05-03-2012 3:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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