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Author Topic:   Is God good?
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 691 of 722 (686101)
12-28-2012 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by kofh2u
12-28-2012 9:03 PM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor
Myers/Briggs test have poor validity and reliability: that means they are bollocks.
Using a this job test is no more psychology that phrenology or graphology.
The rest of your rant seems more akin to Bicameralism than Frued.
You really do know nothing, don't you?
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by kofh2u, posted 12-28-2012 9:03 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 692 of 722 (686108)
12-29-2012 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 685 by kofh2u
12-28-2012 11:57 AM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor
This is neither anything identified in the bible or in Freud or Jung's work.
There is no one to one correspondance between Christianity and these two men's ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by kofh2u, posted 12-28-2012 11:57 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(1)
Message 693 of 722 (686109)
12-29-2012 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by kofh2u
12-28-2012 9:03 PM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor
Meyer's Briggs is practically useless, except for cheating lonely people out of money by tricking them into thinking it will help them find a date.
btw, "personality types" are not archetypes and the Meyer's Briggs personality types are 16, not 8.
Seriously, though. Meyer's Briggs is a pseudo-science ang is widely dismissed by actual psychologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by kofh2u, posted 12-28-2012 9:03 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 694 of 722 (686126)
12-29-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by jar
12-09-2012 8:02 PM


Christianity according to Phat
As a Protestant Christian though I need to point out that that belief simply cheapens Jesus Christ and Christianity and turns it into a really selfish "What's in it for me" con job.
I disagree. My belief is that Jesus Christ was in the beginning with His Father. He was before He was born and He IS after he died.
I fail to see how this doctrine cheapens Christianity in any way.
Perhaps you have read this:
Nicene Creed writes:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
In my belief, God is good and good alone. To call God both good and evil turns Him into a pantheistic oneness, rather than a monotheistic absolute. God created good and evil, to be sure, but it was a necessary foreknown to allow for free will.
If you had a kid, for instance, and commanded him to stay inside and not to venture outside, he could not disobey you if there was no outside. He would by default have to stay inside. (in communion) Lucifer, according to some tradition, was originally an angel in communion with God and the rest of them. Only by choosing to rebel did Lucifer get cast out(hence the need for an outside). By the same token, humans are aware of good and evil and are responsible to choose whether to do evil(go outside) or choose good.(remain in communion)
One analogy that I like to use regarding a Trinitarian concept involves the Sun(analogous to God "in Heaven") the Light(Jesus Christ, the light of the world)and the heat or warmth(of the Holy Spirit). Jews know or believe there is a sun in the sky. They feel the warmth. They cannot, however see the light.
John 9:39--Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
For whatever reason, so the dogma goes, the Jews were blinded to the reality of a Messiah. I believe that God is good, however, and the good guys win in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by jar, posted 12-09-2012 8:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by jar, posted 12-29-2012 10:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 695 of 722 (686127)
12-29-2012 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Phat
12-29-2012 10:19 AM


Re: Christianity according to Phat
That may well be the Gospel of Phat, the question is whether it is supported by the Bible or by the Nicene Creed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 12-29-2012 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 696 of 722 (686129)
12-29-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by Stile
12-28-2012 10:50 AM


Re: Is God Powerful or Good?
I don't have a problem with this at all.
I've been saying all along that God is either not good, or not all-powerful.
Jesus was asked by the rich young man " ...Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" And Christ's answer included the famous words - "Why do you ask Me concerning what is good? There is [only] One who is good ..." (Matt. 19:16,17)
Only God is good, in this passage. Mark has it - "And as He went out into the road, someone ran to [Him] and kneeling before Him asked Him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One - God." (Mark 10:17,18)
No exception is mentioned by Christ concerning Noah's flood, Sodom and Gamorrah, the Amalakites, the Medianites, or slaves, or women captured during wartime, etc." "No one is good except One - God."
I believe that God is the One Who is good as Jesus taught.
I think also the teaching of Matt. 19:16,17; Mark 10:17,18; and Luke 18:18,19 bare two important truths:
1.) God only is the ultimate good One.
2.) If you call Jesus good you must be willing to call Jesus God.
Concerning God being all-powerful, I am not always sure what is meant. To make a square circle is an impossible contradiction. I am not sure God is not "all-powerful" because He cannot make a square circle. A circle that is also a square may be something an all-powerful God cannot do. Then again, I don't know for sure.
Interestingly the book in the Bible which mentions The Almighty the most number of times is the same book that deals so intensely with human suffering, the book of Job. I might think that the book about the great debate on human suffering would mention the All- Sufficient God or the Almighty God the least. But God's almightiness is mentioned there more times than any other book.
I fully agree that God could exist as very good, but just not all-powerful.
As stated above, I am not sure that all powerful means to some people to do what is logically a contradiction, like creating a square circle.
But the existence of the universe, Paul teaches, manifests God's eternal power.
" ... both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse." (Rom. 1:20b,)
I believe that 2000 years ago at that level of knowledge God's eternal power was clearly seen through the creation. I believe 1000 years ago at that level of knowledge the same was true. I believe that today in 2012, with the current level of scientific knowledge exponentially encreased, it is STILL true - God's unlimited eternal power is manifested by the things which He has created.
And should another 500 to 1000 years of more encreased technological knowledge be discovered by mankind, I believe the same will still be true. I don't believe that any level of scientific discovery, for those who do not suppress their conscience, will ever negate this truth - God is a God of eternal power.
God can really want to help us be good, but He's just not powerful enough to do that. His power is limited to us FIRST seeking His kingdom and His righteousness.
God's eternal purpose is not to have a good man but a Godman. That is a man "organically" mingled and united to Himself in mutual blending. That is His eternal purpose. That is why the very universe exists.
One way to demonstrate this is with Ephesians 1:1-5. Please bear with me as I quote it from verse 1, because it is so good.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ,
Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love. Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
I understand this passage to mean that BEFORE God laid the foundation of the world, ie. before He created the universe, He had a good pleasure He intended. This good pleasure was to have SONS - implied in the word "sonship" .
These are human beings He creates who also are joined to His own divine and uncreated life. Sons sharing His life and nature. They are not merely "adopted" sons. They are organic sons partaking of His own life and nature. Christ is the sphere and realm in which God will obtain such sons with the sonship.
Based upon this plan, God then created the universe. Based upon this eternal purpose, God then laid "the foundation of the world" . The meaning of the universe is that the Father may mass produce sons of God like and in the image of Christ. - "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Christ] might be the Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29)
Now this eternal purpose of God to wrought His life and nature into His created people does involve God in difficulties. And it is these difficulties which tempt us to doubt that He is all powerful.
But we have the record of the Bible as a demonstration. From Genesis every kind of obstacle and frustration is raised against God from accomplishing His eternal purpose. There is the rebellion of Satan. There is the fall of man. There is the downward plunging degradation of man, there is the weakness of Abraham, the barreness of Sarah's womb, there is the self indulgence of Isaac, there is the trickery of Jacob, there is the famine, the jealousy of Joseph's brothers, Egypt, slavery, disbelief, disobedience, Babylonian Captivity, opposition to the Son of God, failures of the church, etc, etc,
But He cannot be stopped from achieving His goal. He branches over the walls. He secures always at aleast a remnant who lay the train tracks for the mighty locomotive of His will to move forward.
Some men on earth will always be reserved by Him to lay the tracks. The locomotive of His will is powerful. The engine is extremely powerful. But He needs, He has limited Himself that some would through cooperation, coordination, prayer and petition and obediance - lay the train tracks down for this encredibly powerful engine to run on.
Yes, the Almighty God has decided, probably before even creating the universe, that He would limit Himself in this way.
In the Father we see the ultimate authority.
In the Son we see the ultimate submission, the ultimate obedience TO authority.
And in the Holy Spirit is the transmission, the conveying of this life of Divine/Human coordination into those who open themselves to receive Him.
Again God as the Father is the eternal emblem of Authority and of Power. God the Son is the ultimate mingling of God and man; an incorporation of the union of God with man and man in God. The Son is the emblem of perfect Submission to the Father's will.
Through His submission He secures eternal redemption through His obedience at Calvary. And the Holy Spirit is now the flow, the transmission, the dispensing of this life of Jesus into those who are redeemed and who receive Christ as Lord.
Is that what you're saying? God isn't capable of dealing with the problem of evil right now?
If so, then I agree.
God will not unilaterally do some things if He does not have a man on the earth to coorespond to His heart's desire.
Go back to the very beginning of Genesis. There you have a triangle situation. At one point you have God Himself represented by "the tree of life" . At another point in this triangle you have the Devil represented in the tree of death - "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". And at a third point you have the created man in between these two sources - Adam.
Adam is already good. God has myriads of good angels. But He does not have a man whose life is saturated with His own uncreated and divine life as represented in "the tree of life" .
You have a triangle there. It seems that Adam will tip the situation either in favor of God or in favor of the Devil. It seems that the destiny of creation is much dependent upon which source Adam chooses to live by.
Adam is warned. But Adam is given also his own choice. We too have a choice. Though our choice may cause God some problems, ultimately He cannot be defeated. With our foolish choice to take some "other" way besides God's way, we may slow Him down, erect some problems as obstacles, etc. But He will always branch over the wall. It may take Him more time. But He will accomplish all of His desire through a remnant through whom He can operate.
The phrase about branching over the wall refers to a prophecy about Joseph, a powerful type of Christ in the Old Testament -
"Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a fountain; His branches run over the wall.
The archers bitterly attack him, And shot at him and harassed him; But his bow remained firm, And the arms of his hands were agile, By the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob - From there is the Shepherd, the stone of Israel." (Genesis 49:22-24)
You should read tonight the story of Joseph. He is a type of Christ. And God caused all misfortune to turn table and work of Joseph's ascension and God's will. The walls were there. But Joseph was a fruitful and bless bough who branched over the walls.
And I am afraid I may lose this post on a technicality. So I stop writing here. Perhaps I can continue latter.
Yes, God has chosen the way to be limited by man opening to Him, recieving Him, mingling and blending with Him.
Yes the Almighty and all powerful Triune God is taking a way which requires at least a remnant or minority on earth who allow Him a beachhead to bring in His eternal kingdom.
And He will get it. We know this because of prophecy. From one transcendent viewpoint it is all already accomplished for John has already seen the new heaven and the new earth and the New Jerusalem as the ultimate mingling of God and man - the capital of the new universe.
And the little snake Satan? He and those who followed him, who would not be redeemed by Christ's salvation, are in the lake of fire. And the sons of God inherit all things with Christ -
"And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away.
And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true. And He said to me, They are come to pass.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely." (Rev. 21:4-6)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Stile, posted 12-28-2012 10:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by Stile, posted 01-02-2013 8:55 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 697 of 722 (686441)
01-01-2013 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2012 10:35 AM


Happy new year folks
jaywill:
Man is offended at the very thought of eternal punishment.
Catholic Scientist:
Speak for yourself. My ego and feelings are not hurt. And my question remains:
I think contemporary culture displays an offence at the teaching of eternal perdition. The concept goes against the grain of modern sentiments in these respects:
1.) It offends the idea that God is loving. It offends the exaggerated sentimentality of God's love.
Ie. "If God loves us then God will be good to us no matter what rebellion, transgression, lawlessness, sinfulness we cling to. His love will cause Him to suspend justice."
In my opinion an over sentamental concept of God's love is offended by Christ's teaching on eternal punishment.
2.) Also offensive is the related idea that human beings are wicked by their fallen nature and by choice.
When people argue that the fallen nature of man is God's fault, I think you can be certain that the idea of divine punishment is offensive.
Ie. "God is wrong to make me this way, with a sin nature, and to judge too."
3. ) To some people the idea of Christ being the only subtstitute for man's sins being punished, is offensive.
Christopher Hitchens, for example, complains that the most destructive teaching of the Bible is the idea of Christ being the one Redeemer for everyone. Hitchens would argue that they absolves people of personal responsibility.
4.) The idea of Christ being the only escape from eternal damnation is offensive to many people's sense of pluralism and tolerance.
5.) The idea that all sin will be either punished in Christ the Substitute or in the sinner in eternal perdition others find offending.
Of course to "offend" is defined this way online:
quote:
1. To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
2. To be displeasing or disagreeable to: Onions offend my sense of smell.
I hear you saying that you have a good and healthy ego and are not "hurt" in your feelings in the least. Okay.
But you should consider the same possibility with God. Your whimsmical remark was along the line of God having His poor whiddle feelings hurt. Right?
It has already been argued in the Bible itself. In the book of Job, Job complains in essense "If I sin how does that hurt You God ?"
Its hard to come up with any really knew arguments about this that the Scripture did not already give someone equal time to.
Whether the word is "feelings" or whether another word is better, something about God's punishment offends some men to the point that is extraordinary.
In the book of Revelation as it speaks of the last days it speaks of certain people totally given over to the Antichrist. Their total refusal to repent in the face of extreme pain reveals that they are desperately guarding something in them from being wounded or hurt.
" And the fourth [angel] poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And ,em were burned with great hear, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues. and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:8,9)
"And the fifth [angel] poured ut his bowl upon the throne of the beast [Antichrist]; and his kingdom became darkened; and they grawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (vs. 10,11)
Regardless of the physical pain of these judges subjects of the antichrist, there is SOMETHING in them which they fight to preserve no matter what. These men are "enjoying" something which even God cannot cause them to relinquish and repent of.
I don't know if it is a matter of ego gone wild or what. It seems that the very venomous fangs of the Devil have sunk into their souls. And whatever the exquisite poison is that keeps Satan warring against God has also obsessed these poor subjects.
The discomfort of relinquishing that perverse pleasure is more to them than the burning heat or sores. The age ends with some vainly chastized by God. They simply will never turn back to the truth.
There is no rational or logic to their stubborness as far as I can see. The Antichrist or Satan has not offered them anything in return. The age will conclude with some men so locked into revolt against God that nothing will change their mind.
I have to conclude that for such poor sinners hell must be some ultimate escape of some time.
jaywill:
What kind of existence do you think can be had in a state where God's forgiveness is rejected, His presence is disdained, His care is not wanted, His blessings are not needed, His holiness is insulted, His authority rejected, His glory profaned ?
Torment is an apt word to discribe the existence of the sinner who wants nothing but himself and his unforgiven transgressions against God and man.
Catholic Scientist:
Why?
The typical unbelieving sinner today feels estranged in the universe already. None seem to be able to tell us why they are here or what the purpose of their existence really is.
If you ask him why he is here many are likely to object "Why does there have to be some purpose anyway ?"
To feel Fatherless on a speck of planet whose only future is to be engulfed by a dying star, and a second rate one at that. No real meaning to existence other than to keep one's self busy enough with the daily survival so as not to have to think about it too much.
That multiplied by many times would be emptiness to a terrible degree. I would rather come to the eternal love of God, the unseperatable love in Christ.
I mean if we were made for God then to be without God and His love would be such a vanity.
Why is eternal torment the right punishment for dissing God?
Apparently, sinning against God is also sinning against your fellow man. Apparently the vertical relationship of creature to God is bound up with the horizontal relationship of creature to creature.
Your flippant use of street talk and "dissing God" indicates to me that you really do not take your sinning as a serious matter. The tone is "Hey, What's the big deal anyway?" I hear you saying "My sins are not a serious thing." Suppose my sins, your sins are a serious matter before a holy God?
Jesus in Gethsemene seemed not to take our sins as a joke. He prayed that if in any way the cup could pass from Him. Yet not His will but the Father's will if it was that He should drink that cup of wrath on our behalf. Maybe I should take seriously what the Son of God has taken seriously and not count it as trivial.
I probably cannot give you a satisfactory reply. It may be a question too difficult for me to answer.
I will say that the Bible teaches that God became a man in Jesus Christ. And in His redemptive death it must be that God has gone as totally far as He could go in His love to save us. Maybe if the man was not God Himself "dissing" God or Christ might not be so serious.
If in Christ's redemption God is saying that He, as God, and as far as it is possible for human's to understand, He went the full measure that we may be saved from our sins, truth will not be mocked or opposed.
But don't blame poor me for this teaching. The most fearsome words concerning the wrath of God upon the unbeliever was not originated by me. These words, if they were entrusted to anyone to speak, were entrusted to the mouth of Jesus.
His mouth uttered this teaching. You will have to blame Jesus Christ for the teaching. I just have come to believe both sides of God - both His kindness and His severity.
"Behold then the kindness and severity of God ..." (Romans 11:22a) . Out of that same mouth of Jesus of Nazerath came the world's greatest words of Divine kindness and the most fearful words of Divine punishment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2012 10:35 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 698 of 722 (686484)
01-02-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 696 by jaywill
12-29-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Is God Powerful or Good?
jaywill writes:
I believe that God is the One Who is good as Jesus taught.
I think also the teaching of Matt. 19:16,17; Mark 10:17,18; and Luke 18:18,19 bare two important truths:
1.) God only is the ultimate good One.
2.) If you call Jesus good you must be willing to call Jesus God.
I am willing to say that Jesus and God are one and the same, that's fine.
And I certainly agree that the Bible says God is good. Especially about Jesus.
But this is what we're here to discuss. Is God good?
The problem of evil exists, so God is either not powerful enough to stop it, or He doesn't want to stop it.
God can be good, just not powerful enough to prevent the problem of evil.
Or God can be all powerful, just not good enough to stop the problem of evil.
But He can't be both. It's impossible because the problem of evil does exist.
Concerning God being all-powerful, I am not always sure what is meant. To make a square circle is an impossible contradiction. I am not sure God is not "all-powerful" because He cannot make a square circle. A circle that is also a square may be something an all-powerful God cannot do. Then again, I don't know for sure.
Why mention logical impossibilities?
I am not suggesting that God could do anything that is logically impossible.
I'm simply saying that God could restrict an evil person's free will instead of allowing an evil person to restrict an innocent person's free will.
I could do it if I was powerful enough.
Either God isn't powerful enough to do it... or He isn't good enough.
Interestingly the book in the Bible which mentions The Almighty the most number of times is the same book that deals so intensely with human suffering, the book of Job. I might think that the book about the great debate on human suffering would mention the All- Sufficient God or the Almighty God the least. But God's almightiness is mentioned there more times than any other book.
Again, I agree that the Bible says this.
The Bible says all sorts of things.
But, obviously, some of them are not true.
The problem of evil exists.
A God that is all powerful, and all good could easily stop the problem of evil without requiring any sort of "square-circle" logical impossibility. An all powerful, all good God could simply restrict an evil person's free will instead of allowing an evil person to restrict an innocent person's free will.
But... He doesn't, since the problem of evil does, in fact, exist.
Therefore... either the Bible is wrong about God being all good.
Or the Bible is wrong about God being all powerful.
He can be one or the other, but as long as the problem of evil existed at some point in time (like... now, and the past) He cannot be both.
Some men on earth will always be reserved by Him to lay the tracks. The locomotive of His will is powerful. The engine is extremely powerful. But He needs, He has limited Himself that some would through cooperation, coordination, prayer and petition and obediance - lay the train tracks down for this encredibly powerful engine to run on.
Yes, the Almighty God has decided, probably before even creating the universe, that He would limit Himself in this way.
If, as you say, God is choosing to restrain Himself from preventing the problem of evil. If God is allowing evil to flourish so that some other aspect of His plan may proceed as He desires, then God is not good.
A good God would not allow evil to exist in order to move forward with another plan of His choosing. Such a God is playing games with humanity... seeing if we're capable of doing this or that while he allows the problem of evil to exist. Seeing if humans have it within them to come to God regardless of the problem of evil. Allowing humans to make their own free choice to come to God even though the problem of evil is right in their faces. It's a game, and it's not good.
Yes, God has chosen the way to be limited by man opening to Him, recieving Him, mingling and blending with Him.
Yes the Almighty and all powerful Triune God is taking a way which requires at least a remnant or minority on earth who allow Him a beachhead to bring in His eternal kingdom.
And He will get it. We know this because of prophecy. From one transcendent viewpoint it is all already accomplished for John has already seen the new heaven and the new earth and the New Jerusalem as the ultimate mingling of God and man - the capital of the new universe.
I have no problem with God getting His way.
I simply have a problem with how God has decided to get His way.
He's decided to limit His ability to prevent the problem of evil so that man can be open to Him, receive Him, mingle and blend with Him.
To me, that is not worth a single person being raped or murdered.
I would freely give up my ability to open myself to God, receive God, mingle with and blend with God for all of eternity if it could somehow protect all others from the problem of evil.
To me, preventing the sufferring of others is more important than gaining additional "wonderousness" for myself.
If I had the power of God, if I could prevent the problem of evil... then I would do so.
To me, it sounds like God is playing a game with humans. Giving them the problem of evil to see if they can overcome it and still make their way to Him. That is not good.
Yes, the Bible says that God is good.
Yes, the Bible says that God is all-powerful.
But, the two cannot co-exist along with the fact of the problem of evil.
You seem to agree with this.
You seem to say that God is, indeed, all-powerful. He's just not good. God would rather include the problem of evil for humans so that they may come to Him.
Is God not powerful enough to remove the problem of evil and still give humans the ability to come to Him?
Removing the problem of evil does not remove free will, it would not remove the free will of choosing to come to God or not. Therefore there is no "square circle" being requested.
I do agree that God can be all-powerful, and just not very good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by jaywill, posted 12-29-2012 10:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2013 11:36 PM Stile has replied
 Message 700 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2013 8:09 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 699 of 722 (686703)
01-02-2013 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Stile
01-02-2013 8:55 AM


Re: Is God Powerful or Good?
The problem of evil exists, so God is either not powerful enough to stop it, or He doesn't want to stop it.
My conclusion is opposite from yours. I believe that God's power and goodness is not less manifested but all the MORE manifested in the manner in which He works in time.
I don't think those are the only two alternatives. You have no problem believing God and Christ one. You have no problem believing that Christ is good. You have no problem believing that Christ taught that God was good.
Then perhaps you also have no problem believing that the climax of His operation arrives at a world in which evil is completely vanquished. I speak of Revelation 21 and 22.
Since we see that the world in which the evil is eliminated is the destiny towards which His creation is to arrive, then I see your problem as a complaint with timing.
It is God's use of time which you object to. That is to say "Well, why are we not ALREADY in this wonderful consummation ?"
So I do not see only two alternatives. either God is powerful but not benevolent or God is benevolent but not powerful. A third alternative is that you disagree with God's timing to accomplish His eternal purpose.
God can be good, just not powerful enough to prevent the problem of evil.
Again, there is ample testimony throughout Scripture that He intervened, circumvented, overcame evil yet not on a universal level. The universal level is not arrived at until after the millennial kingdom of 1,000 following Christ's second coming. In the age of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22 the evil is totally vanquished.
At least I see where we are headed as He assures us on the way of both His goodness and His power. It is God's usage of time and His timetable that you do not approve of.
If He had either a shortage of power or a shortage of goodness then somehow He must acquire it along the way. Rather than God acquiring these attributes along the way, I believe that He has always had them. It is His usage of TIME for the full and ultimate revelation that you disagree with.
But I trust that in His wisdom He has good reason to gradually work out His plan in time as He does.
Somehow, I think, it must assure that there will never again be another rebellion as led by Satan in eternity future, because of the way He is dealing with that Advasary and Opposer now in time.
Or God can be all powerful, just not good enough to stop the problem of evil. But He can't be both. It's impossible because the problem of evil does exist.
But we see that we are headed towards the world of Revelation 21 and 22 and the New Jerusalem. So I deem it is not a matter of inability of God's part.
My conconclusion then is probably directly opposite of yours. I think that His method of dealing with the evil of a contrary will to His own does all the MORE eventually manifest His goodness and omnipotence.

I contemplate the alternatives of God before He created all things. These were His choices:
1.) He could not create anything or anyone but simply continue in His own Divine sufficiency and solitariness as the Triune God.
2.) He could decide to create only such beings as should automatically always robotically conform to His will without any possibility of deviation from it.
3.) He could grant angels and men the royal dignity of freedom to decide for themselves whether to be in His will or against it. He could create creatures who can choose though He foresaw that many of them would abuse this freedom and revolt against His administration. And He could foresee that such rebellion would result in tragic and endless consequences to them.
The third option seems to be what the Creator has done. And I think the very fact of this granting creatures freedom manifests His goodness and omnipotence more than the other two scenarios.
That God can persuade rather than coerce manifests to me both a higher goodness and higher omnipotence.
Even more impressive is that He could include all possible rebellion against His will in one grand resevoir - Satan's revolt. God could use one great being as a grand repository within which to subsume all possible rebellion in one container forever.
Then after having dealt with that one grand repository being within whom ALL possible rebellion could be associated, then for eternity there could never again BE such a rebellion - forever.
What wisdom. What power. What graciousness is manifested in God's way. Paul writes:
"That He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." (Eph. 2:7,8 )
This is an eternal dispay of the vast extent of Divine kindness towards man. And a eternal exhibition of the "riches" of His grace over them and within them.
Before this eternal exhibition He has somehow dealt with all contrariness to His will in one grand scheme in time. All evil having been located in one realm under one grand leader the Devil. And all such evil being forever vanquished as that Devil is forever vanquished.
Both the power and the goodness of God in this scheme are beyond human imagination. Paul says that in this manner the multifarious wisdom of God is manfested to angelic beings of great rank -
"" ... the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel ... to enlighten all [that they may see] what the economy of the mystery is which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things, in order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church, according to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph. 3:8c-11)
His riches of salvation and divine life are unsearchable. His many faceted wisdom of God is manifested to angelic rulers and authorities through His EKKLESIA. And this is according to His "eternal purpose".
I'm simply saying that God could restrict an evil person's free will instead of allowing an evil person to restrict an innocent person's free will. I could do it if I was powerful enough.
I see a God who will allow you to keep your freedom of choice not live in God's perfect will. But the free willed being cannot escape the consequences of his choice.
I am free to jump out the window of a ten story building. But if I do jump I am no longer free to change the consequences of my choice.
God created being who are free to reject Him. But He is righteous, He is just, He is life. Having fixed their choice His laws will take over as the law of gravity takes over for the one jumping out a window.
Either God isn't powerful enough to do it... or He isn't good enough.
I think a third alternative is the case. God is both powerful and good as Christ spoke and the Bible teaches. It is His use of time and timing which you do not like.
In allowing you time to repent of you and I to be repentant and reconciled to Him, I count as goodness. That His love eventually constrains many of us to agree with Him, I count as real power.
Again, I agree that the Bible says this.
The Bible says all sorts of things.
But, obviously, some of them are not true.
I think the case rather is that we are often like a drunk man someone is trying to place in the saddle of a horse. We are prone to fall over to one side or the other side. The drunken man is propped up on the left and slumps over on the right. Then he is propped up on the right and he slumps over on the left.
In our way of thinking we are prone to fall into one error or the other. The paradoxes in the Bible expose this tendency in our thinking.
We are lopsided and embalanced often. Ie. "Either God os good and not all powerful. Or He is all powerful and not good."
I believe that God is by definition the maximally good and powerful and loving and just Being.
The way these attributes coordinate togther we may not always appreciate.
The problem of evil exists.
Does this mean that you confess that you are still evil ?
Do you mean that the problem of evil exists with someone else or that it exists with you?
If it exists with you also, then you should appreciate some further time for you to be sanctified by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I count God allocating more time for me to grow spiritually not as His weakness or His shortage of benevolence.
Rather I am thankful that He gives me another day to grow in His grace and perhaps share the good news that other sinners may be saved. I think it would be rather selfish of me to demand that all evil be cleared up only immediately AFTER I have been a recipient of His mercy.
But... He doesn't, since the problem of evil does, in fact, exist.
Therefore... either the Bible is wrong about God being all good.
Or the Bible is wrong about God being all powerful.
Or you are wrong in your shortsightedness. That is that His outworking of His plan in time towards that world in which His will triumphs eternally, is misunderstood by you.
He can be one or the other, but as long as the problem of evil existed at some point in time (like... now, and the past) He cannot be both.
I have outlined what I think is a third alternative.
The outworking of His purpose in time is not understood well by you.
So my concept is that His way could not more manifest both his goodness and His power.
As stated above I find it good of God that:

quote:
3.) He could grant angels and men the royal dignity of freedom to decide for themselves whether to be in His will or against it. He could created creatures who can choose though He foresaw that many of them would abuse this freedom and revolt against His administration. And He could foresee that such rebellion would result in tragic and endless consequences to them.
If, as you say, God is choosing to restrain Himself from preventing the problem of evil. If God is allowing evil to flourish so that some other aspect of His plan may proceed as He desires, then God is not good.
Adopting your concept would involve me believing that you are wiser than God. And that would not make sense.
He is the Creator and you are the creature. If He had not the wisdom to impart to you, how could you have obtained a greater degree with which to teach Him?
And the natural creation itself testifies that the Creator is far superior to the creature. The design of our physical bodies is enough to prove that "It is He that has made us and not we ourselves."
The percision of your cell production, respitory system, reproductive and digestive system, as well as nervous system, let alone the brain's functions and the mind's functions as well, indicated that the Creator's skill far surpasses that of the creature.
Why should I assume that His benevolence is short to yours?
His skill in design surely is not.
A good God would not allow evil to exist in order to move forward with another plan of His choosing.
I see a coming eternity in which evil is vanquished forever. Yet His creatures still have freedom of will.
It is hard for me to imagine a greater power and goodness who is able to accomplish this.
Such a God is playing games with humanity... seeing if we're capable of doing this or that while he allows the problem of evil to exist.
When I view the agony of Jesus in Gethsemane and on Calvary I do not detect anything like a "game" or some such amusement. I see that Christ took His Father's will with absolute seriousness.
At least this Man Jesus Christ completely believed that He had to go through what He was to go through in order to save us sinners. I see nothing indicating the playing of games.
This all must have been known to God as a possibility before He created any other beings. He foreknew that some creatures would want nothing to do with His perfect will or His eternal love.
The Bible says that this Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. So I don't view this foresight or foreknowledge of God as any sort of game.
Seeing if humans have it within them to come to God regardless of the problem of evil. Allowing humans to make their own free choice to come to God even though the problem of evil is right in their faces. It's a game, and it's not good.
I believe that Christ is God incarnate. I cannot regard His redemptive work on His cross as any kind of "game." I see no amusement in His agony. And that He did this for me also seems sober and serious.
That Christ died to shed His blood for my redemption seems nothing of a "game" to me.
But as a much younger Christian, when I read the book of Revelation some part of it seemed to me like a comic book. I could not understand WHY God would not simply create the New Jerusalem as it appears there from the very beginning of Genesis.
I did not appreciate at all that this masterpiece is something God must arrive at through much work. He has to work Himself into man and work man into Himself. I did not understand why it was not automatically that way from the very start of all creation.
Latter I came to understand that perhaps there was an Edenic paradise from earliest in a pre-adamic age until a being with the capacity to rebel revolted. Then there were two wills in the universe. God had to do a lot to bring back His creation to ONE divine will for eternity.
I see something profound here in God outworking His eternal purpose. And that so that there would never again in eternity be a rebellion to His Governorship. I see nothing as an idle game or vain amusement.
And that is all I'll write this evening.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Stile, posted 01-02-2013 8:55 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by Stile, posted 01-03-2013 9:16 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 700 of 722 (686709)
01-03-2013 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by Stile
01-02-2013 8:55 AM


Re: Is God Powerful or Good?
I simply have a problem with how God has decided to get His way.
The question of authority is probably more fundamental than the question of God's power or God's benevolence.
When Jesus taught His disciples to pray "Your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth" this means acknowledgement of His supreme authority. It believes His power and goodness are in place. But there needs to be an "Amen" to His authority.
Apparentlyt, God us using time as a sphere in which the questioning of His authority is progressively solved. For Satan has more than made himself the antithesis of good. Satan has called into question God's authority.
When the matter of authority is settled the matter of power will also be settled. In the kingdom of God His He is unlimited. Instead of us assuming that we have no problem with God having His way, we should bring our hearts into His light and pray -
"Lord, what is there in me that underminsed Your lordship?"
Jesus is Lord. And Jesus, is ABLE to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him (Hebrews 7:25). This has never been a matter of power on God's side, but because of the nature of the present age, where the "will" is determining factor, there are limitations on the human side.
The limitations are because of the failure to cooperate with God. And related to this reluctance to cooperate is the questioning of God's authority.
He's decided to limit His ability to prevent the problem of evil so that man can be open to Him, receive Him, mingle and blend with Him.
He is not idle. In every age He is operating in the overcoming ones of faith. While this authority questioning age is proceeding He always has a group as an antitestimony, vouching for His authority.
So we do not at all see God as idle throughout history. We see Him moving forward with a remnant of human beings who come under His administration and in the surrounding rebellion testify of His salvation.
You are the light of the world, said Jesus.
You are a city set on a hill, said Jesus.
You are the salt of the earth, He said.
Salt is a preservative which prevents the food from rotting totally. The church's overcomers presence on the earth acts as salting preservative to hold back the earth from complete rotteness. The overcomers testify as kingdom people - people under God's administration.
You disagree with this way of God. I see His wisdom in it. This is the only way the gospel has been transmitted down through the centries. When they were killing the Lord's disciples the church could not be destroyed. The saying went out that -
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the saints"
Something of the durability of Christ's church God desired to manifest. Neither attack from without or attack from within can destroy her. The gates of Hades cannot prevail against her though the gates of Hades continue to try.
God desires to use TIME to manifest the indestructible nature of His kingdom within the surrounding revolt. So Jesus taught us to pray -
"Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven ... Your kingdom come. The power and the glory be to You God forever and ever."
Our presence as disciples undermines the questioning of Christ's lordship.
Must continue latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Stile, posted 01-02-2013 8:55 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 701 of 722 (686712)
01-03-2013 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 699 by jaywill
01-02-2013 11:36 PM


Option #4 > Option #3
jaywill writes:
I contemplate the alternatives of God before He created all things. These were His choices:
1.) He could not create anything or anyone but simply continue in His own Divine sufficiency and solitariness as the Triune God.
2.) He could decide to create only such beings as should automatically always robotically conform to His will without any possibility of deviation from it.
3.) He could grant angels and men the royal dignity of freedom to decide for themselves whether to be in His will or against it. He could create creatures who can choose though He foresaw that many of them would abuse this freedom and revolt against His administration. And He could foresee that such rebellion would result in tragic and endless consequences to them.
The third option seems to be what the Creator has done. And I think the very fact of this granting creatures freedom manifests His goodness and omnipotence more than the other two scenarios.
For an all-powerful Creator, there is a 4th option (at a minimum...):
4.) He could grant angels and men the royal dignity of freedom to decide for themselves whether to be in His will or against it. He could create creatures who can choose though He foresaw that many of them would abuse this freedom and revolt against His administration. And He could forsee that such rebellion would result in tragic and endless consequesnces to them as individuals, instead of being able to hurt other people as well.
...which grants more freedom, is more benevolent and is within the power of an omnipotent God.
"More benevolent": Because evil is restricted and innocence is allowed to flourish instead of the other way around.
"More freedom": Because under your #3: An evil man has the ability to restrict the free will of many different individual innocent people (a rapist can have multiple innocent victims). While under my #4: Only the evil man himself, as an individual, would have his free will restricted (God would prevent the rape from occuring).
So, why didn't God pick the option that has more free will and is morally better?
Either God isn't powerful enough to make things go this way.
Or God isn't good enough to want to protect innocent people in this way.
I see a God who will allow you to keep your freedom of choice not live in God's perfect will. But the free willed being cannot escape the consequences of his choice.
I am free to jump out the window of a ten story building. But if I do jump I am no longer free to change the consequences of my choice.
God created being who are free to reject Him. But He is righteous, He is just, He is life. Having fixed their choice His laws will take over as the law of gravity takes over for the one jumping out a window.
The free will and consequences you have described here would still exist within option #4.
Why did God choose the system that gives us less free will?
Why did God choose the system that contains the problem of evil?
Either God is not powerful enough to put choice #4 into action.
Or God is not good enough to put choice #4 into action.
I believe that God is by definition the maximally good and powerful and loving and just Being.
The way these attributes coordinate togther we may not always appreciate.
Why are you trying to force God into creating a "square-circle"? I thought you were against such a thing?
A square-circle is a logical impossibility.
God being maximally good, and powerful and loving and just while the problem of evil exists and while we live in a world with reduced free-will... is a logical impossibility.
Why are you forcing God into creating something that cannot possibly exist? All it does is show that you do not understand the consequences of what you are promoting.
Does this mean that you confess that you are still evil ?
Do you mean that the problem of evil exists with someone else or that it exists with you?
Yes, I confess that I am still evil.
There are many times that I think selfishly and end up hurting people I care about. Such things are evil. It exists in me, and in pretty much everyone I've ever met.
then you should appreciate some further time for you to be sanctified by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
I do appreciate the time.
I count God allocating more time for me to grow spiritually not as His weakness or His shortage of benevolence.
But it is His weakness or shortange of benevolence. Identifying facts does not imply a lack of thankfulness for the benevolence we currently receive. No matter how much guilt you attempt to pile upon it.
What is it about option #4 that is not within the power of an omnipotent being?
What is it about option #4 that a maximally benevolent being would not strive for?
The problem of evil exists.
Option #4 is within the abilities of an all-powerful, maximally benevolent God.
We live in option #3.
Therefore, God is either not powerful enough to create option #4.
Or God is not benevolent enough to give us option #4.
I think it would be rather selfish of me to demand that all evil be cleared up only immediately AFTER I have been a recipient of His mercy.
I agree very much so.
I am not demanding that God do anything.
I am simply identifying that an all-powerful, maximally benevolent God had option #4 available, but did not choose it.
Either God isn't powerful enough to give us option #4.
Or God isn't benevolent enough to give us option #4.
If you want to say that option #3 is better than option #2 and we should be thankful... then I agree. But this isn't what we're talking about, and that's a rather boring conversation.
Or you are wrong in your shortsightedness. That is that His outworking of His plan in time towards that world in which His will triumphs eternally, is misunderstood by you.
Again, you are right. I've acknoweldged this many times.
It is possible that God's current option #3 plan contains some information that I am not aware of. This information may possibly explain why this is, in fact, maximally beneficial.
I cannot think of any additional information that would do this and you have yet to suggest any, but it is possible that it exists...
It is also possible that this information does not exist, or that this information explains precisely why option #4 would be a better choice.
Therefore, as with all decisions, we are left with the information that is available to us.
Would you like to discuss the information that is available to us? It is a much more interesting conversation than simply saying "well, maybe we just don't know how yet." "Maybe we just don't know how yet" is a defense for all positions, not just yours. Using it is rather useless.
Why should I assume that His benevolence is short to yours?
Because the information available to us tells us that.
Perhaps looking at the information available to us is not important to you. That, also, is an acceptable answer.
I see a coming eternity in which evil is vanquished forever. Yet His creatures still have freedom of will.
It is hard for me to imagine a greater power and goodness who is able to accomplish this.
This could very well be true.
It is possible that God is simply the "most" powerful being. Just not "all" powerful.
If so, then He could still be maximally benevolent to us and He was not powerful enough to provide option #4. So we get the next best thing... option #3.
I see something profound here in God outworking His eternal purpose. And that so that there would never again in eternity be a rebellion to His Governorship. I see nothing as an idle game or vain amusement.
Such profoundness is also found in option #4. In fact, option #4 is even more profound as it contains even more free will (less free-will is restricted). More free-will would mean more chances for God to lose which would make it even more special when we do choose God. Why didn't God go with option #4?
Either God is not powerful enough to give us option #4.
Or God is not good enough to give us option #4.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2013 11:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2013 11:24 AM Stile has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 702 of 722 (686721)
01-03-2013 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by Stile
01-03-2013 9:16 AM


Re: Option #4 > Option #3
For an all-powerful Creator, there is a 4th option (at a minimum...):
4.) ... He could forsee that such rebellion would result in tragic and endless consequesnces to them as individuals, instead of being able to hurt other people as well.
Are you suggesting something like a billions individualized universes for a billion individual creatures ?
Do you mean a kind of quarantine built into creation such that no horizontal effect upon other men is possible each one's individual actions ?
Is this a kind of solitary confinement which negates the possibity any enfluence of one man upon another ?
...which grants more freedom, is more benevolent and is within the power of an omnipotent God.
You'll have to explain. For this sounds like a less powerful God who assigns solitary confinement so that harm between person and person is impossible. Yet love between person and person is impossible as well.
This would seem to be really unlike God's own triune nature. For the Son of God speaks of the love within the Godhead before the creation of the world in this way:
"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)
It appears that this divine love between the Father and the Son was the perfect Unity "before the foundation of the world", ie. before the creation of the universe.
I think then a perfect unity in diversity and a perfect form with freedom is in the heart of God in creation. That is to reflect Himself, "God is love" .
For sure the process of salvation brings the billion or more redeemed into a oneness in the Triune God's oneness -
"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us (v.21) .... I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one (v.22) (John 17:21a,22a)
Unlesss I misunderstand you it seems you propose in your option #4 a creation in which there is ONLY a vertical relationship between each created man and God with no possibility of a horizontal enfluence between people.
While I think about this I think God has somewhat met your concept halfway.
Each individual surely has his OWN final choice which effects his own eternal destiny.
Yes, for certain my actions have had a negative impact on the life of another. For certain this is true. But God, who is all transcendent and all knowing, can account for this as He follows the other life throughout the course of his or her entire development.
We see this in the Bible. Korah and 250 men or renown utterly rebelled against Moses. They were severely disciplined. The earth opened up and they went down alive into Sheol. Yet latter the very sons of Korah became such godly men.
When we trace the effect of father upon child in the Bible we see very rebellious dads could give rise to very obedient sons. And the reverse was also true. Very good fathers could parent very disobedient sons.
Though enfluence and hurt from man to man is a fact of life, we see also each individual stand before God individually responsible. In this also God branched over the wall.
I will have more time to think about your concept. That is all I can participate this morning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Stile, posted 01-03-2013 9:16 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Stile, posted 01-03-2013 2:27 PM jaywill has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 703 of 722 (686734)
01-03-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by jaywill
01-03-2013 11:24 AM


Re: Option #4 > Option #3
jaywill writes:
Are you suggesting something like a billions individualized universes for a billion individual creatures ?
Do you mean a kind of quarantine built into creation such that no horizontal effect upon other men is possible each one's individual actions ?
Is this a kind of solitary confinement which negates the possibity any enfluence of one man upon another ?
No, I don't mean any of that.
Let's make a really simple example.
Instead of getting all complicated with "all evil" we can just take "an evil person who rapes innocent people" as an example.
In our world, there are evil people that are capable of raping multiple innocent victims.
When this occurs, these innocent victims have their free will removed.
They want to live their lives rape-free... they don't get this.
They want to be able to walk alone at night... some no longer get this due to the trauma of the rape.
They want to do a job that requires social interaction... some can no longer do this due to the trauma of the rape.
They want to hang out with friends and feel comfortable in public places... some can no longer do this due to the trauma of the rape.
This all exists, within our world.
The rest of their lives, every day... multiple people. Hundreds of thousands of days where people have had their free will to do what they want restricted because of the trauma forced upon them by a single evil person.
What I mean is that God could (if He wanted to) restrict the evil person's free will instead of allowing the evil person to restrict everyone else's free will.
For our example, it could be done like this:
When the evil person actually decides to rape someone... actually performs sexual advances on another human being with the intent of their own sexual pleasure while they do not have the permission of the human they want to touch... God could instantly put them to sleep for 6 hours.
Exactly the same world as we have now, except that whenever a rape is about to happen, God simply puts the offender to sleep for 6 hours.
Instead of 1 man restricting the free-will of an innocent victim for thousands of days (the rest of their lives) because of one single evil action... there is only 6 hours of free-will restricted to the evil offender.
Restrict the evil offender's free will instead of allowing them to restrict the innocent victim's free will.
The result is less free will restricted overall.
The result is more free will overall.
Unlesss I misunderstand you it seems you propose in your option #4 a creation in which there is ONLY a vertical relationship between each created man and God with no possibility of a horizontal enfluence between people.
You do misunderstand me.
If you would like, we can go simpler than option #4 and onto a new option #5 where "only rape" is restricted as described above. All other evils are still allowed. But rape itself is off the books as described.
Love is still the same, social interaction between people is still the same, people can still be hurt, people can still be cruel. Just no rape.
More evil is removed.
More free will is available (less free will is restricted, as explained).
Why did God not do this?
Either God is not powerful enough to put someone to sleep for 6 hours when they are about to rape an innocent victim.
Or God is not good enough to put such a system in place.
I hope this example is sufficient.
If not, we can go even simpler still:
We can propose an option #6 where God only prevents evil people from imprisoning innocent victims (abducting children and holding/torturing them against their will).
When we trace the effect of father upon child in the Bible we see very rebellious dads could give rise to very obedient sons. And the reverse was also true. Very good fathers could parent very disobedient sons.
This can still be possible with the problem of evil removed completely (#4) or even just lessened, if you prefer (#5 or #6).
Though enfluence and hurt from man to man is a fact of life, we see also each individual stand before God individually responsible.
People can stand individually before God, individually responsible even if the problem of evil is completely removed.
Or, if it's easier to understand, we can simply lessen the problem of evil a little bit, and obviously this can still occur.
The point is, the present system isn't optimized for anything.
A tweak here or there could provide improvement in pretty much any direction you can imagine.
Therefore, an all-powerful, maximally-benevolent creator God is simply impossible.
Our current world (#3) is too undirected.
I will have more time to think about your concept. That is all I can participate this morning.
Take your time.
I, for one, would rather live in a world that is governed by an all-powerful, maximally benevolent God.
But if we take an honest look at the world around us, it's just not there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2013 11:24 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2013 7:57 PM Stile has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 704 of 722 (686778)
01-03-2013 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Stile
01-03-2013 2:27 PM


Re: Option #4 > Option #3
In our world, there are evil people that are capable of raping multiple innocent victims.
Tragically this is true in this fallen sin cursed world.
At the same time I want to include in my consideration occurances where I know God's enfluence intervened. This is NOT to gloss over the tragedies which we know occur. This I must do to not dispair.
Some were held back from raping because of the fear of God.
Some were kept from raping because their God given conscience protested.
Some who listened to a still small voice to perhaps "lock your door" listened not knowing that such a gentle barely perceptible inner voice was the voice of God.
Before I face your hard core scenario, I have to thank God for these situations which I KNOW do also occur on earth.
Some woman, because she was fortified with a sense of inner value that she is made in God's image, though wounded, was not devastated. Her house was built upon the Rock. Though the wind blew upon it, though the flood waters arose upon it, it did not collapse altogether for her house was built in the Rock of Christ's words.
I thank God for these realistic situations too.
Some rapist was held back only because of the prayers of someone else. I am thankful for that prayer warrior, that they are able to make effective supplication before God's throne. Had they not been faithful to pray perhaps not only rape would have occured but murder as well.
Some raped and repented. And thier witness enfluenced the behavior of other would be rapists.
Some rape victim found that however LOW she felt Christ the Savior could get beneath her and uphold her in peace and even joy.
I do not count God as idle and just letting all crimes run wild. I thank Him that He can even be the God of the victim of great tragedy. He can be the God of the great dark transgressor. We can never sink so low that we sink beyond the reach of the Savior.
Because of Christ, because of God, rapes also did not occur today.
But SOME horrible ones also did occur.
When this occurs, these innocent victims have their free will removed.
They want to live their lives rape-free... they don't get this.
I have no easy reply about this.
But I know that both the rapist and the raped are in need of the Lord Jesus.
A NEW BEGINNING can be obtained in Christ. He has that power -
"So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold they are become new." (2 Cor. 5:17)
Rape victims have found peace and healing in Christ.
Abused children have found victory and a new life in Christ.
Rapists, molesters, murderers, divorcees and the divorced have found uplifting and transcendence over the tragic past in the Savior Christ.
What kind of Savior would Jesus be if He were only the Savior of those with a rosy life which had no problems? He would not be so Beloved by so many through the ages. He is called the Great Physician and the Friend of Sinners because He so well knows the healing art.
Mary Magdelene loved Jesus and had the honor of perhaps being the first to witness Him in His resurrection. Jesus had casted seven demons out from Mary Magdelene. She may have been bound in chains of rape, child molestation, tragedies of womanhood to the darkest degree.
We are not told her story. In John chapter 4 we read of the woman who had had five husbands and was then living with one who was not her husband. I think such a woman must have also felt very used and very low in moral. Yet found a new beginning in coming to Jesus.
These tragic figures you mention all need salvation in Christ. No matter how low the victimizer or the victim has sunk, they need to hear that One can get beneath them and lift them up. Christ rose from the grave. And Christ is able to RAISE them up.
This is not merely some sort of positive thinking. This is realism. This is the real situation. No one can sink below the hell into which the Son of God sank. No one is so low as to be beyond His reach if they will stretch forth their hand to grasp His.
They want to be able to walk alone at night... some no longer get this due to the trauma of the rape.
I knew a woman whose daughter was doused in gasoline and burned to death by a crazy crack addict. This mother lost her daughter to such a horrible crime.
How she overcame in Christ I do not know. But I know she overcame. I do not seek to duplicate her experience. But I cannot deny it. As low as she sank in dark tragedy she rose and ascended with Jesus Christ in victory over this awful past.
But this Son of God cannot be only the Lord of those with fortunate lives. He came prepared to be the Lord of those with unimaginably tragic pasts too.
My wife tells me of the tragedy of living with an alchoholic father. I listen and think no human child should have had to pass through those experiences. But because some passed through something to be saved by Christ, they are able to comfort others in similar situations.
If God is not able to untie the most difficult knots and set the captive free, then He is only the God of the comfortable. The Bible and history show that Christ is the God of those who have sunk to the depths. They found His saving hand could still be underneath.
Your scenario makes me all the more want to consecrate myself to love and serve Jesus to make Him known to everyone I meet.
They want to do a job that requires social interaction... some can no longer do this due to the trauma of the rape.
They want to hang out with friends and feel comfortable in public places... some can no longer do this due to the trauma of the rape.
These victims need the Savior that they may have a new beginning and "walk in the newness of life". They need the Great Physician. They need the One who knows most intimately their case and knows the healing art.
This all exists, within our world.
The rest of their lives, every day... multiple people. Hundreds of thousands of days where people have had their free will to do what they want restricted because of the trauma forced upon them by a single evil person.
The whole question is, as I see it, "Can people sink SO LOW that God cannot get beneath them to lift them up ?"
I believe He reached me. I believe He reached others who sank lower than me in misfortune. I believe that if He were only the God of the well off He would not be much of a God. He is a God of resurrection. He is a Man who overcame death and has the keys of Hades.
With these terribly unfortunate experiences He still says "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live." (John 11:25)
I believe that we can substituted nearly any word in that promise and it is still the truth -
" ... [she] who believes into Me, though she were raped, shall live"
"" ... he who believes into Me, though he raped, shall live"
" ... he who believes into Me, though he was traumatized, shall live"
" ... [she] who believes into Me, though she were brutalized, shall live"
This is the "good news" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and why we need to both live the Gospel and spread the Gospel. "Though we be ________________ [however we might fill in the blank], believing into this One, this One who is the resurrection and the divine and indestructible life, we may reign in Him, live in Him, arise and transcend in Him and come out victorious in Him.
I do not consider this positive thinking. I consider it stark realism. He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him.
What I mean is that God could (if He wanted to) restrict the evil person's free will instead of allowing the evil person to restrict everyone else's free will.
In the last 24 hours I believe that God dealt with many situations in probably many ways. Not all would I wish or agree with.
You see a possible difference between you and I is that I do not think anyone is getting away with anything. It is an illusion that there will be no final justice, no final accounting.
Preaching of a erroneous and incompetent God who could not do as well as ME in setting up the universe, removes the incentive from the sinner. It removes his sense of responsibility. If God is so incompetent then his raping must not be his fault.
It is possible that your concept of the inept God logically leads to Atheism. I suspect that following your concept to it conclusion would lead one to imagine that no God at all then, must exist.
For our example, it could be done like this:
When the evil person actually decides to rape someone... actually performs sexual advances on another human being with the intent of their own sexual pleasure while they do not have the permission of the human they want to touch... God could instantly put them to sleep for 6 hours.
I think that there are many different ways God will deal with the person under temptation today. Some will be held back from sinning. Some will not.
Some may be held back not only in the outward action but much more in the innermost motive. Perhaps they read in Matthew's Gospel that Jesus said even to look at a woman to lust after her was to commit adultery with her in your heart.
While I consider the terrible cases of those NOT held back from sinning today, I also have to realistically be thankful for those who were held back from being either victimizers or victims by something they may have heard from the word of God. Or perhaps the Spirit of God simply touched their conscience to stop.
But rapes will occur also. I don't deny that. Rape is sometimes used as a military weapon against whole populations.
I knew of a couple of situations where it seems that wisdom to say the right thing saved a woman from being raped. I know one woman who demanded of her attacker to imagine that someone was doing this to his mother or his sister. He stopped.
I want to be the kind of Christian who is able to touch the throne of God with my prayers for the women. If I petition God to protect these women or this or that woman, I want there to be nothing in my heart hindering the ear of the Almighty from hearing my prayer.
And sensible practical precautions need to be taken as well.
I raised a young man.
I raised him in the fear and admonition of the God of the Bible.
I think I did my part before God that this man will never rape anyone.
We are the salt of the earth, Jesus says to His disciples.
We know that we are headed to a world in which rape will never again be.
Exactly the same world as we have now, except that whenever a rape is about to happen, God simply puts the offender to sleep for 6 hours.
This might hinder the outward action. I think He wants to do beyond that and transform the inner motive in the first place.
You are welcomed to imagine a better way the world should work. For my part, I think a teaching of a error prone God who is inept and whose ways could have been vastly improved upon by me, tends to absolve the sinner of the sense of responsibility.
I think the rapist, upon understanding your philosophy and accepting it, will feel more justified in raping rather than less so.
I also think he would think "If such is the case then there must not be a God. So then I rape all the more with no accountability to any higher Judge."
Instead of 1 man restricting the free-will of an innocent victim for thousands of days (the rest of their lives) because of one single evil action... there is only 6 hours of free-will restricted to the evil offender.
One thing is for certain with the world as it is. His raping will not continue forever. And if he is not saved through Jesus, he will be punished forever along with Satan who he has followed.
Not only he needs to be told this truth. But the women also need to be told this truth. For unless her attacker is saved no human court will exact the retribution upon his crime as God will.
The truth of the Gospel is the great counterbalance not only to temptation but to tragedy as well. For through the Gospel I can even be brought to love and pray for my enemy.
The truth can effect the heart of the wounded one to even forgive and pray for the victimizer. She knows that no one, but no one, is getting away with anything.
This truth sets free and brings light in the darkness of trauma. And those who have been brought low and meet Jesus are able to comfort others who have been brought low.
You do misunderstand me.
If you would like, we can go simpler than option #4 and onto a new option #5 where "only rape" is restricted as described above. All other evils are still allowed. But rape itself is off the books as described.
Rather than go tell people that I can improve upon the way God runs the universe, I would prefer to warn them that He is the Sovereign Governor, not they or I.
Accordingly, an infallible record with no omissions, no exaggerations, no errors is kept concerning their every doing. Then I would go on to tell them of the Savior.
Either one of two places they will be judged. Either they will be judged on Calvary, on the cross of Jesus in His substitionary sacrifice for the sins of the world OR they will be judged at the great white throne as the books of all thier deeds are opened before God.
This is the situation, I would tell them, is what exists. Rather than busy them with a imaginary hypothetical world which I invented and boast is better.
I think this kind of talk will move them in the direction of atheism. It is possible that the whole concept is actually concocted as an atheist's argument. I mean a rational that no God exists, I suspect, is the eventual outcome of this kind of logic.
The rapist needs to know that God should be feared, in the sense that His justice can reach beyond this life. The reaction of fear is ONE of a number of healthy responses Jesus taught His disciples in contemplating the authority of God:
"But there is nothing covered up which will not be revealed, and hidden which will not be known.
Therefore what you have said in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the private rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops.
And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:2-5)
There is no secret that God cannot know.
There is no sneaky plan that God cannot see.
He can expose EVERYTHING.
He will judge the secrets of men in their motive, let alone in their actions.
Do not get me wrong. I do not say Jesus taught ONLY fear should be man's reaction to the Father. But included in our love, awe, worship, and communion, should also be the healthy fear.
His authority can reach farther than that of any human court of law. And His power can reach beyond any warden or policeman.
But to pull the rapist aside and tell him that YOU can imagine how God could have done things better will not deter him from his crime. You will embolden him all the more. Why should he respect a God who is far inferior to you?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Stile, posted 01-03-2013 2:27 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by Stile, posted 01-04-2013 3:49 PM jaywill has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 705 of 722 (686851)
01-04-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by jaywill
01-03-2013 7:57 PM


More squared circles
In setting up God as the all powerful and maximally benevolent creator of a world that contains the problem of evil... you have created a "square circle" situation. You have created a situation where you then need to explain how evil is benevolent.
Squares are not circles.
Evil is not benevolent. They are opposites.
You seem to have plenty of explanations for the way things are.
But everything you say still comes down to one of two quesitons...
Is it because God is not benevolent enough?
Or is it because God is not powerful enough?
I agree that this is the way things are. You do not have to explain the way things are.
The questions, though, still exist. Can you answer them?
"No, I cannot." Would seem a lot shorter of a response.
I fully respect an answer of "No, I cannot answer your questions, but if you have faith that God is good, then you can have faith that the missing information will be sufficient when it is revealed to you."
Personally, I do not believe that there is any missing information that can justify this sort of world to still be created by an all-powerful, maximally beneficial God. I also do not believe there is any missing information that can explain "square-circles". But that may be my mistake, and I do understand that "faith" can get one past this blockade.
If that is so, please just say so. Your extended explanations do not seem to do anything to alleviate the two questions. Watch:
Because of Christ, because of God, rapes also did not occur today.
But SOME horrible ones also did occur.
Yes, like you say, the point is that some do still occur. And it's because God doesn't stop them.
Does God have the power to stop all rapes?
Does God have the benevolence to want to stop all rapes?
These tragic figures you mention all need salvation in Christ. No matter how low the victimizer or the victim has sunk, they need to hear that One can get beneath them and lift them up. Christ rose from the grave. And Christ is able to RAISE them up.
But what happens after the sinking (evil actions) isn't the issue.
The issue is the sinking in itself.
Is God not powerful enough to prevent the sinking in the first place?
Is God not benevolent enough to want to prevent the sinking in the first place?
These victims need the Savior that they may have a new beginning and "walk in the newness of life". They need the Great Physician. They need the One who knows most intimately their case and knows the healing art.
...
The whole question is, as I see it, "Can people sink SO LOW that God cannot get beneath them to lift them up?"
This is saying that God (Jesus) has the power to heal/help the victims.
But that is not the question.
The question is: "Why does God allow people to sink in the first place?"
The question is: "Why does God allow people to be raped in the first place?"
The question is: "Why does God allow people to be imprisoned and tortured in the first place?"
Does God have the power to protect the innocent from becoming victims in the first place?
Does God have the bevevolence to want to protect the innocent from becoming victims in the first place?
You see a possible difference between you and I is that I do not think anyone is getting away with anything. It is an illusion that there will be no final justice, no final accounting.
Whether or not final accounting occurs is not the issue.
We can even assume that the final accounting is definitely going to happen, if you'd like.
Is God powerful enough to prevent evil before the final accounting?
Is God benevolent enough to want to prevent evil before the final accounting?
It is possible that your concept of the inept God logically leads to Atheism. I suspect that following your concept to it conclusion would lead one to imagine that no God at all then, must exist.
It is possible that anything can lead to Atheism. Same with Christianity. But this is not the issue either.
Is God powerful enough to protect innocent people regardless of the method leading some to Atheism?
Is God benevolent enough to want to protect innocent people regardless of the method leading some to Atheism?
I think the rapist, upon understanding your philosophy and accepting it, will feel more justified in raping rather than less so.
I also think he would think "If such is the case then there must not be a God. So then I rape all the more with no accountability to any higher Judge."
This sentiment is not without it's noble aspects.
Of course... why does an innocent have to be raped in order for a rapist to learn a lesson?
Why does God side more "free-will protection" to the evil-doer instead of the innocent victim?
Why does God focus more on teaching the evil-doer how to be good instead of protecting the innocent victim? Such a game is not a good thing.
Is God powerful enough to teach a lesson to an evil-doer while also protecting the innocent?
Is God benevolent enough to want to teach a lesson to an evil-doer while also protecting the innocent?
One thing is for certain with the world as it is. His raping will not continue forever. And if he is not saved through Jesus, he will be punished forever along with Satan who he has followed.
If the evil is not going to continue forever... then at some point God does have the power to remove the evil-doer's free will.
Why not do that sooner and protect the innocent? Wouldn't that be "more good"?
Is God powerful enough to protect the innocent sooner rather than later?
Is God benevolent enough to want to protect the innocent sooner rather than later?

As you can see, everything you say seems to be explanations for specific scenarios... but doesn't seem to touch on these two questions at all. The two questions are just as unanswered after as they were before.
The same, orginal, two questions remain:
Is God powerful enough to remove the problem of evil?
Is God benevolent enough to want to remove the problem of evil?
The problem of evil exists.
Therefore, God cannot possibly be all-powerful and maximally benevolent.
If He was, He would answer "yes" to the above two questions, and then the problem of evil would not exist.
Obviously, He's answering "no" to at least one of those questions.
You seem to lean towards the side of God being all-powerful.
Perhaps God simply isn't maximally benevolent, then. Maybe He's created this world, as you say:
quote:
There is no secret that God cannot know.
There is no sneaky plan that God cannot see.
He can expose EVERYTHING.
He will judge the secrets of men in their motive, let alone in their actions.
...He's just going to do it eventually... and, in the meantime, allow the innocent to become victims and have their free-will removed instead of simply removing the free-will of the evil-doers. Which is not a good thing.
I understand that there may be reasons why this should be done eventually.
The problem with labelling God as "all powerful" and "maximally benevolent" is that there is then no reason why it would be done eventually. What possible reason could exist that a powerful, benevolent God couldn't overcome? What possible reason could squares have for being circles?
If you'd like, you can continue explaining the existing system, and I can continue asking the same two questions that never seem to get answered. Or, you can try to frame an answer that cannot have a "more powerful" or "more benevolent" solution. Or, you can accept that Faith is what is required in order to continue a belief in an all-powerful, maximally benevolent God. Which is, by all rights, perfectly acceptable when dealing with Gods and those who find faith to be acceptable. It's just not convincing to those who see squares and circles as two different things that cannot be one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2013 7:57 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2013 12:01 PM Stile has replied

  
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