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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 163 of 276 (581092)
09-13-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Jack
12-09-2008 6:04 PM


"Mr Jack" writes:
The fact is that throughout history people have, for the most part, been wrong about everything.
Science included? I think so.
Stile, my problems with atheism, and or atheists, is that they pretend to not believe in something, for one.
2. they say they won't subscribe to a god because of lack of evidence, when the bible clearly states that it is by faith that you get to know God.
3. they say they don't have a problem with people having faith (so long as they are not doing harm to anyone) then go on to compare faith in god to santa claus, or the easter bunny. You are not respecting people when you do that, you are insulting them.
4. they resort to history books and point out all the bad things that were done in the name of god/s. But I can bet you anything there were more good people than bad people, all of them theists. History books are like the news sometimes, only reporting the bad stuff. Besides, logic would tell you that people don't need to blame their immorality on a belief, people are just people, and they are bad because they choose to be bad. Blaming it on god, or using a god as an excuse does not contribute to his non-existence. As if there were no bad atheists. Wouldn't I be wrong to say that atheism is bad, since a random atheist committed a wrong, and immoral act? Atheists always talk about taking moral responsibility. So then don't be hypocrites, just like people need to take moral responsibility, and responsibility for their own actions, then atheists need to stop using people's irrational beliefs in god/s to not believe.
Largely I find the logic in being an atheist to be hypocritical, just as much as the hypocrites in the churches. Again, people just being people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 12-09-2008 6:04 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


(1)
Message 164 of 276 (581093)
09-13-2010 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Tram law
08-23-2010 5:39 PM


"Tram law" writes:
It's frustrating to constantly try to explain to them that an atheist is simply someone who has a lack of belief in God and/or the supernatural.
right, you don't believe there is a god, that is your belief.
It's doubly frustrating to explain this to an atheist.

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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 173 of 276 (581349)
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
We've already gone over in another thread, that the lack of evidence of anything, does not prove it's non-existence. There are still plenty of things yet to be discovered, and they all exist. We may not possess the methods for detecting those things, or are unable to see them yet, but they do exist.
If I took a cube, and pulled a perfect vacuum on it, I could easily prove with 99.99% certainty that there is nothing material inside of it. If you said to me, there was a god inside of it, I would have no way of detecting that god, since we cannot detect things that do not exist in our dimension, or however gods exist, so I would have to take it on faith that there is nothing there, because I believe there is nothing there.
Until the day comes that we have every instrument to detect every single thing in the universe, and we have categorized, and recorded every single thing in the universe, and can predict with 100% certainty that this or that will happen, we take things on faith.
There are varying levels of faith. It takes almost no faith to believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but a lot of faith to believe in a god.
Like Mr. Jack says
quote:
Science has a method for improving what it's right about, and finding what it's wrong about.
A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person would never be an atheist. He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
People do not believe in Santa Claus, or the Easter bunny, because we already have proof that those are just stories made up to invoke the minds of children. No one is actually going around telling adults that Santa Claus does indeed exist. It takes almost no faith for me to believe he doesn't exist. I am sick and tired of people using them as examples. It's hypocritical, and insulting.
Onifire, insulting someone, and being insulted are two different things. I don't get insulted, be I do recognize when I am being insulted. My skin IS think. I get pissed because the supposedly rational minds of atheist, aren't so rational when throwing around insults. If you have a valid argument about something, there is not need to resort to insults to explain your position.
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules. They appear as hypocrites, something I can't stand. (talking about the angry atheist, not every atheist)
Also people who take it on faith that god wants them to go and blow people up because of something they read in a book, are just doing what they would have done regardless of the book. It is what is in their hearts already. If I read something like that in the bible, I would have enough common sense to know it was wrong, and then it would make me question my faith in that book. So again, responsibility falls on the person.
Mr.Jack, faith is not a cop-out. You have faith in everything you believe in, and you believe in stuff. It takes faith to accept anything in life, just different levels of it. You want to rely on empirical evidence, and knowledge, but those things are limited, and ever changing as you stated. So the thing you think is right today, can change tomorrow. That seems ridiculous to me, more ridiculous that believe in most of the "grand virtues" of religion. So before you go around thinking your way is the best way, look at things in perspective, and leave yourself open to a better interpretation. Live by your own rules.
You could rob theism of it's history, and you would gain respect IMO. The history of theism, is pretty shady. The philosophy of what Jesus taught us is not shady. There is a difference between God, and religion.
You say:
"MrJack" writes:
The problem with religious history is not that bad things have been done in the name of God, it's that there's no sign of those who believe one thing or the other behaving any better than anyone else (with the exception of the Quakers who, frankly, rock on toast; seriously, has there ever been a group of people with such a consistent history of being on the right side of moral arguments?).
I couldn't agree with you more. What we have here is people, just being people. Theist or not. That is why Jesus taught us that it doesn't matter what you profess with your mouth. It is that reason that I cannot personally judge who is going to heaven or not. I am not going to judge why people become atheists, because we don't always hear the whole story. I am sure there are people who become atheist because of negative experiences with religion. I believe in accountability.
frako, I would love to respond to you, but you are way off the beaten path, and your spelling sucks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 09-15-2010 10:18 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 09-15-2010 10:24 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 176 by dwise1, posted 09-15-2010 3:44 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 177 by onifre, posted 09-15-2010 6:03 PM riVeRraT has replied
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 Message 179 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 7:02 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 181 by Dr Jack, posted 09-16-2010 5:31 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 183 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-18-2010 5:50 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 185 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2010 4:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 186 of 276 (582101)
09-19-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
09-15-2010 10:18 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"crashfrog" writes:
Christianity is absolutely no obstacle to using drugs, cheating on your wife, self-dealing, robbery, corruption, or any other vice.
But Jesus Christ is.
Since Christianity can't stop people from being people, it's absurd to suggest that atheists deny God so they can do whatever they want.
Yes, that is a good point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 09-15-2010 10:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 187 of 276 (582102)
09-19-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nwr
09-15-2010 10:24 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
On the definition of atheism.
"nwr" writes:
That's too restrictive.
Not my definition, was from wikipedia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 09-15-2010 10:24 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2010 8:41 PM riVeRraT has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 188 of 276 (582103)
09-19-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by dwise1
09-15-2010 3:44 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"dwise" writes:
The only thing that atheists have in common with each other is that they do not accept the god-stories of theists; they do not believe that you possess the truth.
Which is fine. But they act like they have the truth. They refuse to admit that the concept of no-God is a belief.
And the second thing that atheists have in common with each other is that theists hate us
That is not even close to being true, you should stop thinking that way.
Au contraire! Of course the gods exist. They are human inventions devised to attempt to explain the inexplicable. The same as the supernatural.
Prove that, and I will accept it. Until then, it's just a belief.
Now, even if the supernatural were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if supernatural entities were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if some supernatural entity were to exist that could in any manner be considered a god, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it?
My point exactly.
He is not a native English speaker. How well do you write in his own native language?
Sorry then, I tried to say it nicely, because I want to understand him, but I didn't. I mean there is spell check.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 191 of 276 (582109)
09-19-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by onifre
09-15-2010 6:03 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"onifire" writes:
Why should I consider the possibility of a being that human's imagined as being valid?
Human imagined? Prove that one, or else stop saying it.
You don't have to believe it's valid.
The default position is, there are no supernatural entities,
Says who? That's complete bullshit. Even children think there is something more. People are born thinking there is more to life than just this. Believing in a god and the supernatural is the default position.
I start at zero and work my way up the scale of belief as more and more evidence is brought forward. But as of yet, there is no evidence, not in the slightest, so I remain at position zero, also refered to as atheism.
Again, you will never find God that way. It is by faith only. If you are not willing to live by faith, then you will never know God.
but unconvinced of the possibility that a human being, here on Earth, somehow had an experience that supported the notion that things that are not bound by or derived from the laws of nature can exist. Frankly, how the fuck could anyone possibly assume such an illogical thing based on meer experiences?
Why is that so hard for you to imagine? You have never sat in a black-lit room, stoned out of your mind wondering where the hell all this came from? Ever wonder what was before the big bang? It is totally easy to imagine things working in a different way. Time travel, worm holes, the random movements of quantum particles, its all there.
Do I seem like that to you? 'Cause I'll caution you that that would be insulting.
I should have specified, the pissed ones. You don't seem pissed, and you have been nice to me, and our conversations have been awesome.
You are also doing what most theist do, you only accpet one god and to YOU all atheist are rejecting your god and his rules.
No I am not. I am apologetic. That means a lot of things. I've said it a bunch of times. I believe in accountability. I don't think atheists are going to hell. No-one can tell whats in another mans heart.
I have chosen to accept one God, because after 38 years of not knowing wtf to believe, something happened to me, that was very real. Had that not happened, had God not come to me in a powerful way, I would still be unsure.
Either that or I am delusional.
You are an atheist like me for any other concept of god that isn't the Christian version.
No, don't try that one on me, I've already had that discussion on another forum. A theist is someone who believes in a "god", not any specific god, just a god.
If that were true, then could you name me one suicide bomber from the religion of Buddhism? Or Jainism? Or Hinduism? Or Christianity? Judaism? No...just Muslims. So it is an isolated problem and one associated solely with the Muslim faith. The bomber is not acting on his/her own beliefs, but the beliefs of their religion.
I am pretty sure that is not true. Someone chime in here. Lots of killing has gone on in the name of "god" throughout the centuries.
Excuse me but the Bible warns it's followers to not pick and choose, nor to question the word of god.
Yea sure. The word of God, comes from His mouth, not repeated by humans. I don't take the bible as the word of God. I take it as a book of writings inspired by the Holy Spirit. But the writings were by men.
That is why so many Christians can read it, and one year a verse can have one meaning in their lives, then a year later, it means something else. That is because God talks to us through those words. We hear His actual word, which is subjective to each of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by onifre, posted 09-15-2010 6:03 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by bluescat48, posted 09-19-2010 8:54 PM riVeRraT has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 193 of 276 (582111)
09-19-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dr Jack
09-16-2010 5:31 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"MrJack" writes:
Well, sure, if you want to use your version of what atheism means
That meaning was ripped from wikipedia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dr Jack, posted 09-16-2010 5:31 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dr Jack, posted 09-20-2010 4:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 194 of 276 (582113)
09-19-2010 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
09-18-2010 5:50 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"DrAdequate" writes:
They would be hypocrites if they were atheists by your definition of the word athiest and yet pretended that they weren't atheists by your definition of the word athiest. But this is not the case.
Not my definition, thanks.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 196 of 276 (582115)
09-19-2010 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Rrhain
09-19-2010 4:45 PM


"Rrhain" writes:
You just think they're liars.
This whole conversation with you, would go much better if you left emotions out of it, and accusations. Nothing could be further from the truth. I cannot judge if someone is a liar, because I cannot see into their hearts.
Not holding the position that god exists is a "belief" the way that not collecting stamps is a "hobby."
No it's not. That is an irrelevant comparison. Let's stick with the word belief, as hobbys are not beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2010 4:45 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2010 2:53 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 197 of 276 (582117)
09-19-2010 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Theodoric
09-19-2010 8:41 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"THeodoric" writes:
You might want to read the next line in wikipedia.
quote:Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Selective quoting is rarely a good idea.
I read that also. That definition is not exclusive. I am sure an atheist wrote that.
In other words, they believe no God exists.
I am challenging that definition. It's not like the concept of god has not crossed all of your minds. First of all, it makes perfect logical sense.
I'll make it very simple:
Theist: someone who believes in the existence of a god
Atheist: someone who believes there are no gods.
You see, theism, and atheism are antonyms. Not one single person alive can prove anything with 100% certainty. And you certainly not prove the non-existence of god. So you believe there are none.
Belief, is faith. There are different levels of faith. It's not math, it's not 2+2, it can't be proven. You just take it on faith that there is no god, because you haven't seen any objective evidence of one. Which is the way it is supposed to be. God wants us to believe by faith, so you won't find any objective evidence of Him.
It's like, I believe if I turn the TV on, it will actually turn on. I can't say with 100% certainty it will, because I just won't know until it happens. We can predict stuff, but we don't know if it will happen, until it happens. So I believe it will turn on, I don't know it will turn on. There is an outside remote chance that it will not turn on. TV's can last an average of x# of years, divided by the amount of times you turn it on. So there is a percentage of failure, and a possibility it won't work.
Gravity works every time we test it. Does this mean it is 100% certain it will work forever? Has it always worked? We can't even calculate it, because we haven't been taking records since the start of the universe. So realistically, and based on approximations, we can say gravity will work 99.999999%(or whatever) of the time. There is still an outside chance that it won't work.
Again, nothing is ever proven. Ever thing we see and think with our minds, and our tests, and whatever, is all based on faith, and belief.
Atheism IS a faith. It doesn't have a religion, but it is a faith.
But I bet you if I started a web-site called atheism.com, a bunch of people would join, and it could become religious in a way.
Which made me search, and here it is:
About Us - American Atheists
Try to understand something, I am not putting down atheism by saying it is a belief.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2010 9:41 PM riVeRraT has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 199 of 276 (582119)
09-19-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by bluescat48
09-19-2010 8:54 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"bluescat" writes:
Only when one has been indoctrinated into such a belief. No one is born knowing anything about life, the environment, the universe or any beings, supernatural or not. The default position is nothing.
No, the belief in gods has been around much longer than the belief of no gods. I would tend to think it is the default human position, and just plain ole human nature.
You should be happy with that. Science has had to break down many wrongs about human nature, this could be one of them. The default position is not always the right one.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 201 of 276 (582121)
09-19-2010 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Modulous
09-19-2010 9:20 PM


Re: Suicide is dangerous
"Modulous" writes:
Can you name anything else that can be found this way? If not - why the special pleading?
I can't think of anything, which ha made me think, ha.
I would be lying if I told you why it is that way.
The only thing I can figure so far, which is off topic a bit, is that previously (if the bible is correct about some of it's stories) that God showed Himself all the time objectively. Even the people who saw Him, and His objective evidences didn't believe. God saw the control of religious leaders, and how it kept people from Him. So He sent Jesus to show us the way, and to change how we meet with God.
Of course there is tons wrong with that last statement, but it is just what I think, an opinion. I don't concern myself with it too much, because history isn't all that accurate, and it just doesn't matter, since my belief, and faith, and what I feel from God is very real to me. I don't need to worry about it. I mean I think about it from time to time, but there is so much that is unexplained in life, you can't beat yourself up on it. Things get answered when the time is right.
The core of my belief is love.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 202 of 276 (582123)
09-19-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by nwr
09-19-2010 9:24 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"nwr" writes:
The Wikipedia entry gives three different meanings, the broad sense, the narrow sense and the most inclusive sense of the word. You quoted only one of those (the narrow sense) and asserted it as the definition. That's why your definition was too restrictive.
What's the difference? You don't believe in gods. That definition works for purposes of this conversation. What are you guys getting all huffy about? It's still vastly different than being agnostic.
Wait, I think I may have the definition of being agnostic wrong. I was always under the impression that being agnostic was someone who was unsure, and thinks there could be a possibility. At least that was what I was taught for years, am I wrong about that? I am reading the definition in wikipedia, and questioning my understanding of being agnostic.
So what I meant and what I said could be 2 different things.
Do atheist think there is a possibility of god or not?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 216 of 276 (582233)
09-20-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Modulous
09-19-2010 9:41 PM


Re: trust
"Modulous" writes:
And experience has shown me that when someone says 'My claim is true, I can't prove it, I can't show it to you, you'll just have to trust me - it's the only way to know I'm telling the truth.
Well, I don't think that way, or speak that way, and neither did Jesus. Don't confuse trust with faith, or belief.
I think Jesus taught us a bunch of things, and if you can see the truth in those things, then you are on your way to faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2010 9:41 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 09-20-2010 2:04 PM riVeRraT has replied
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