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Author | Topic: Is purposeless torture moral? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Ringo
You said it may be moral to offer your daughter to a rapist.Explain and stop playing childish games. As to the first principle of morality. It is to put the Care/harm of children above all else. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
C S
Correct but that was not the scenario given and Ringo did not add the caveat you did. We are dealing with a rapist. Not a potential mass murderer. If we were, he would do the daughter that was given in the hope that he would not use the bomb. A poor gamble at best but one that a moral man would have to make. RegardsDL
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Correct but that was not the scenario given and Ringo did not add the caveat you did. Its the same senario, I added the caveat because you asked for one.
We are dealing with a rapist. Not a potential mass murderer. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
If we were, he would do the daughter that was given in the hope that he would not use the bomb. A poor gamble at best but one that a moral man would have to make. In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative.
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Evlreala Member (Idle past 3075 days) Posts: 88 From: Portland, OR United States of America Joined: |
You have rejected my moral framework without refuting or answering the questions posed that created it so why should I come up with another while the first is sound FMPOV? Actually, I haven't rejected your moral framework, I recomend you go back and reread what was posted. We're not discussing MY moral system. We're discussing YOUR moral system that YOU provided, so asking my questions about MY morality is completely irrelevant. Were you expecting me to answer from the perspective of your moral framework? Let's review;
Basically the old do unto others is what guides me. So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria. If that's the case, all it should take for a given scenario involving torture to be moral is the perspective that the torture is fair and/or deserved by any other criteria that one is willing to apply to themselves. Now, where is the flaw in this reasoning?
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Gretest I am writes:
That's a nice principle to follow but the idea of a "first principle" of morality in general seems to suggest a universal morality. I thought you understood that morality is relative. Different cultures and different societies and even different individuals have different first principles.
As to the first principle of morality. It is to put the Care/harm of children above all else. Greatest I am writes:
There's no game and there's no explanation necessary. There might be situations in which it is moral to offer your daughter to a rapist. To claim otherwise would be to claim that there are absolute principles in morality. I thought you understood that there are not.
You said it may be moral to offer your daughter to a rapist.Explain and stop playing childish games.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
C S
"In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative." That is what I have been saying all along. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Evlreala
You asked where my morality came from and I said "Basically the old do unto others is what guides me.". Your replied "So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria." No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details. It is a guide. Not a blueprint. Your next I partly understand and then you lose me. "If that's the case, all it should take for a given scenario involving torture to be moral is the perspective that the torture is fair and/or deserved ". I follow up to here and my answer is yes, if conditions forces it. The end of your sentence below makes no sense to me. It must be because I am French. "by any other criteria that one is willing to apply to themselves. Now, where is the flaw in this reasoning? " The flaw is either my reading or your writing. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Ringo
"That's a nice principle to follow but the idea of a "first principle" of morality in general seems to suggest a universal morality. I thought you understood that morality is relative. Different cultures and different societies and even different individuals have different first principles." Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives | TED Talk How universal is universal? I see nothing as universal, there are exceptions for all things and we split hairs too much we will never finish a discussion. "There's no game and there's no explanation necessary." If you are going to make up stuff in your own head without letting me know and then expect me to know what you are talking about, with a weird answr, and then tell me that no explanation is required,then it is a game and one I will not play. Get better or get lost. RegardsDL
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
"In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative." That is what I have been saying all along. Not when you're saying that hell is immoral.
quote: Or is that just "in your opinion"? Its not that hard to imagine a moral hell, or daughter rape, or whatever other disgusting thing you want to type about, you're just going to have to be more creative.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
Pretty universal. How universal is universal? (i'm not going to respond to your bare link. Make your point in your own words.)
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Evlreala Member (Idle past 3075 days) Posts: 88 From: Portland, OR United States of America Joined: |
You asked where my morality came from and I said "Basically the old do unto others is what guides me.". I didn't ask you where your morality came from, I asked how do you determine what is morally good from what is morally evil.
Your replied "So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria." No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details. It is a guide. Not a blueprint. So you are being dishonest...I asked you a direct question, and you responded with a disingenuous answer. Why? No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details. Let's try this yet again... How do you determine what is morally good from what is morally evil? If that question is too difficult to begin with, try this one;What about torture is morally evil/not good?
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Torture is immoral because I would not like it done to me.
It goes against, do unto others etc. RegardsDL
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Torture is immoral because I would not like it done to me. This answer has already been shown to be insufficient. I'm pretty sure you would not like to be imprisoned for a crime, or fined for violating a traffic ordinance. Are those things immoral?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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frako Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
This answer has already been shown to be insufficient. I'm pretty sure you would not like to be imprisoned for a crime, or fined for violating a traffic ordinance. Are those things immoral? But you would not like to be robbed, or have your house burn down because some fuck parked in front of a fire hydrant. So if you brake a moral code turned to law you get punished.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So if you brake a moral code turned to law you get punished. So, do unto others as you would have them do unto you must be modified to include the possibility of deserved punishment. And has been pointed out, therein lies the route to relativism. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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