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Author Topic:   Is purposeless torture moral?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 76 of 106 (661133)
05-02-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
05-01-2012 2:13 PM


Ringo
You said it may be moral to offer your daughter to a rapist.
Explain and stop playing childish games.
As to the first principle of morality. It is to put the Care/harm of children above all else.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 05-01-2012 2:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 05-03-2012 4:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 77 of 106 (661134)
05-02-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
05-01-2012 2:35 PM


C S
Correct but that was not the scenario given and Ringo did not add the caveat you did.
We are dealing with a rapist. Not a potential mass murderer. If we were, he would do the daughter that was given in the hope that he would not use the bomb. A poor gamble at best but one that a moral man would have to make.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-01-2012 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-02-2012 1:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 106 (661136)
05-02-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Greatest I am
05-02-2012 1:52 PM


Correct but that was not the scenario given and Ringo did not add the caveat you did.
Its the same senario, I added the caveat because you asked for one.
We are dealing with a rapist. Not a potential mass murderer.
Those aren't mutually exclusive.
If we were, he would do the daughter that was given in the hope that he would not use the bomb. A poor gamble at best but one that a moral man would have to make.
In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Greatest I am, posted 05-02-2012 1:52 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 8:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Evlreala
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 79 of 106 (661242)
05-03-2012 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Greatest I am
05-01-2012 12:49 PM


You have rejected my moral framework without refuting or answering the questions posed that created it so why should I come up with another while the first is sound FMPOV?
Actually, I haven't rejected your moral framework, I recomend you go back and reread what was posted.
We're not discussing MY moral system. We're discussing YOUR moral system that YOU provided, so asking my questions about MY morality is completely irrelevant. Were you expecting me to answer from the perspective of your moral framework?
Let's review;
Basically the old do unto others is what guides me.
So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria.
If that's the case, all it should take for a given scenario involving torture to be moral is the perspective that the torture is fair and/or deserved by any other criteria that one is willing to apply to themselves.
Now, where is the flaw in this reasoning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Greatest I am, posted 05-01-2012 12:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 8:49 PM Evlreala has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 106 (661266)
05-03-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Greatest I am
05-02-2012 1:47 PM


Gretest I am writes:
As to the first principle of morality. It is to put the Care/harm of children above all else.
That's a nice principle to follow but the idea of a "first principle" of morality in general seems to suggest a universal morality. I thought you understood that morality is relative. Different cultures and different societies and even different individuals have different first principles.
Greatest I am writes:
You said it may be moral to offer your daughter to a rapist.
Explain and stop playing childish games.
There's no game and there's no explanation necessary. There might be situations in which it is moral to offer your daughter to a rapist. To claim otherwise would be to claim that there are absolute principles in morality. I thought you understood that there are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Greatest I am, posted 05-02-2012 1:47 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 9:01 PM ringo has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 81 of 106 (661370)
05-04-2012 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
05-02-2012 1:56 PM


C S
"In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative."
That is what I have been saying all along.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-02-2012 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-05-2012 10:38 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 82 of 106 (661372)
05-04-2012 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Evlreala
05-03-2012 2:27 PM


Evlreala
You asked where my morality came from and I said "Basically the old do unto others is what guides me.".
Your replied "So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria."
No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details. It is a guide. Not a blueprint.
Your next I partly understand and then you lose me.
"If that's the case, all it should take for a given scenario involving torture to be moral is the perspective that the torture is fair and/or deserved ".
I follow up to here and my answer is yes, if conditions forces it.
The end of your sentence below makes no sense to me. It must be because I am French.
"by any other criteria that one is willing to apply to themselves.
Now, where is the flaw in this reasoning? "
The flaw is either my reading or your writing.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Evlreala, posted 05-03-2012 2:27 PM Evlreala has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Evlreala, posted 05-06-2012 8:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 83 of 106 (661373)
05-04-2012 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
05-03-2012 4:15 PM


Ringo
"That's a nice principle to follow but the idea of a "first principle" of morality in general seems to suggest a universal morality. I thought you understood that morality is relative. Different cultures and different societies and even different individuals have different first principles."
Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives | TED Talk
How universal is universal?
I see nothing as universal, there are exceptions for all things and we split hairs too much we will never finish a discussion.
"There's no game and there's no explanation necessary."
If you are going to make up stuff in your own head without letting me know and then expect me to know what you are talking about, with a weird answr, and then tell me that no explanation is required,
then it is a game and one I will not play.
Get better or get lost.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 05-03-2012 4:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 05-05-2012 12:34 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 106 (661420)
05-05-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Greatest I am
05-04-2012 8:28 PM


"In your opinion, but not necessarily in other's. Morality is still relative."
That is what I have been saying all along.
Not when you're saying that hell is immoral.
quote:
From a moral standpoint, to even create such a place would not be moral.
Or is that just "in your opinion"?
Its not that hard to imagine a moral hell, or daughter rape, or whatever other disgusting thing you want to type about, you're just going to have to be more creative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 8:28 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 106 (661432)
05-05-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Greatest I am
05-04-2012 9:01 PM


Greatest I am writes:
How universal is universal?
Pretty universal.
(i'm not going to respond to your bare link. Make your point in your own words.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 9:01 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Evlreala
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 86 of 106 (661495)
05-06-2012 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Greatest I am
05-04-2012 8:49 PM


You asked where my morality came from and I said "Basically the old do unto others is what guides me.".
I didn't ask you where your morality came from, I asked how do you determine what is morally good from what is morally evil.
Your replied "So, in your idea of morality, all it takes for something to be morally good is this subjective criteria."
No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details. It is a guide. Not a blueprint.
So you are being dishonest...
I asked you a direct question, and you responded with a disingenuous answer. Why?
No. The above is a starting point for most situations and only a starting point. Each situation will have it's own quirks and I cannot give a blanket statement without details.
Let's try this yet again...
How do you determine what is morally good from what is morally evil?
If that question is too difficult to begin with, try this one;
What about torture is morally evil/not good?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Greatest I am, posted 05-04-2012 8:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Greatest I am, posted 05-07-2012 7:39 AM Evlreala has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 87 of 106 (661504)
05-07-2012 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Evlreala
05-06-2012 8:49 PM


Torture is immoral because I would not like it done to me.
It goes against, do unto others etc.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Evlreala, posted 05-06-2012 8:49 PM Evlreala has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2012 9:05 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 91 by Rahvin, posted 05-07-2012 7:39 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 94 by Evlreala, posted 05-07-2012 9:04 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 106 (661509)
05-07-2012 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Greatest I am
05-07-2012 7:39 AM


Not good enough.
Torture is immoral because I would not like it done to me.
This answer has already been shown to be insufficient. I'm pretty sure you would not like to be imprisoned for a crime, or fined for violating a traffic ordinance. Are those things immoral?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Greatest I am, posted 05-07-2012 7:39 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by frako, posted 05-07-2012 5:29 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 95 by Greatest I am, posted 05-09-2012 4:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 89 of 106 (661545)
05-07-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by NoNukes
05-07-2012 9:05 AM


Re: Not good enough.
This answer has already been shown to be insufficient. I'm pretty sure you would not like to be imprisoned for a crime, or fined for violating a traffic ordinance. Are those things immoral?
But you would not like to be robbed, or have your house burn down because some fuck parked in front of a fire hydrant. So if you brake a moral code turned to law you get punished.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2012 9:05 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2012 7:33 PM frako has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 106 (661558)
05-07-2012 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by frako
05-07-2012 5:29 PM


Re: Not good enough.
So if you brake a moral code turned to law you get punished.
So, do unto others as you would have them do unto you must be modified to include the possibility of deserved punishment. And has been pointed out, therein lies the route to relativism.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by frako, posted 05-07-2012 5:29 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by frako, posted 05-07-2012 7:42 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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