Is purposeless torture moral?

If i where god and there was an afterlife id probably make them janitors, or something similar in heaven. Basicly condemning them to serve the ones they hurt in life for the duration of the afterlife with the possibility of parole for everyone. But then again 15 billion years might make me go crazy and i would condemn everyone to a hell like place just to smell their burning flesh. come to think of it i think the god of the bible likes to smell burning flesh there are a number of references of how he finds the smell of burning flesh pleasing. Hmmm that would explain a lot.

*blink**consults Mr.Dictionary* 1purpose n 1 : an object or result aimed at : intention 2 : resolution, determination purposeful \-fl\ adj purposefully adv purposeless adj purposely advSo....torture without any intention, resolution, or determination. Now....what is torture? 1torture n 1 : anguish of body or mind 2 : the infliction of severe pain esp. to punish or coercehmmmm...punishment or coercion(repression or enforcement) with no intention,resolution, or determination.Which brings us to morality. well if you insist, though those examples bring up morality or the lack thereof. We really don't know what hell is for, if it exists. God would have no need for revenge. No desire(in my belief, anyway) for cruelty. Retribution also sounds like a human idea. Personally I believe (currently) that Hell, if it exists, was never intended for humans. It was for the fallen angelic spirits who freely chose life without God and thus by default became the alternative to God. (beliefs subject to change. ) Assuming, of course, that a fully evolved civilization would have a standard. A consensus. A purpose. And an agreed upon morality. Food for thought.

I thought that I'd just add my own take to the discussion on torture. It seems to me that one of the reasons that western countries went into Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya is that there was the view that we would overthrow evil despotic regimes that engaged in things like torture, and oversee the installation of more humanitarian leaders.Then we turn around and justify torture ourselves as it saves western lives, but at the same time we seem to think that it is ok to sacrifice western lives in order to overthrow other regimes that resort to torture.The only hope of turning these nations around is to change the hearts and minds of the people of those nations so that they can find a better way forward on their own. Where is the example of a better way when we engage in the same way by torturing prisoners, (and for that matter dropping bombs), ourselves. What hope then is there that we will see more humanitarian governments in these countries?To quote my favourite Christian scholar, "if you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win.

I'm an atheist and I consider myself downright evil.

You're just the exception that proves the rule.

But seriously, if you're a christian then you either have to believe in torturous hell or people like hitler and stalin are sitting comfortably somewhere right now. Why?(1) Everyone has an immortal soul.(2) Your soul goes somewhere after you die.(3) Either bad people go to torturous hell or there is absolutely no justice in the afterlife.In other words, if you're a christian and you don't believe in a torturous hell, then there is absolutely no reason to live a good life. Heck, I think I'll go out now and rape some 5 yr old. May be I'll burn a cat on the way home.

Only if you consider the only possible justice a torturous hell. This seems a bit like saying 'Either I'm a millionaire, or I haven't a penny to my name' whereas neither of these things are true.

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In other words, if you're a christian and you don't believe in a torturous hell, then there is absolutely no reason to live a good life. Heck, I think I'll go out now and rape some 5 yr old. May be I'll burn a cat on the way home.

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No you wouldn't. You would feel exactly as you do now about raping a 5 year old. People lead a good life because it feels the right thing to do and because we know if we actually do rape a 5 year old and burn a cat, the law will intervene,It's got sod all to do with Christianity and everything to do with neurology and societal norms.

Well in the first place IMHO the Biblical message is that it isn't about a disembodied soul floating around playing harps in heaven or burning elsewhere. It is bout a re-created bodily existence.In the second place the Bible is pretty clear that it isn't up to us to judge who is part of that and who isn't.In the third place I believe that the God we see in Jesus is just and that in the end perfect justice will be done. The Bible tells us that the hearts of all mankind will be judged.Hypothetical case. Taz goes out and rapes a 5 year old. Our human inclination is that we string you up. However, we then find that you were abused as a child and as a result have severe mental dysfunction. As humans we will never come up with perfect justice but ultimately I believe, yes on faith, that there will be ultimate justice.C S Lewis paints a metaphorical picture in his books The Great Divorce and The Last Battle, of how it might look, but as a Christian my view is that all we know is that eventually there will be a new creation of all things of both heaven and earth. I'll let God worry about who is there and who isn't and as to how that life plays out.By the way, you are the citizen of some country. You live in that country but as you know not all citizens have the same quality of life. Maybe that is indicative of how the next life will be. Being part of new creation may not mean that you have the same quality of life, however that might look, as others around you.As I said, I believe in an ultimate outcome that will be just and will be seen to be just.JMHO

JarRevenge, retribution and cruelty would only serve a twisted mind. Law should be for the sane.
Justice is not served by these.Hell is a punishment without a stated purpose.Why do you punish Jar?To change attitudes and actions. Right?Does hell do this?
No. It does not change attitudes and actions.If hell does create that change and it does not end the torture when repentance happens, then it is immoral and unjust and mythical God would not create it.Regards
DL

HuntardWhat do you see as it's purpose?Regards
DL

So you say but that is irrelevant to the topic.Did you claim that hell "is used purely for revenge retribution and cruelty"?If so, then even under your idea of what hell is, there is a purpose.Is revenge a purpose?Is retribution a purpose?Is cruelty a purpose?

FrakoI agree that religious law is not for civilized people.Regards
DL

Of hell?Doctrine wise to punish the sinners (so it's purpose here is to provide a place for the bad guys to get punished).Reality wise, it's something to scare the masses into obeying, or for "comforting our conscience and sense of justice" purposes. Like Taz said "do you think Hitler and Staling are sitting comfortably somewhere?", in this case, the answer would be "no, they're in hell, getting their just deserts".

JonThe needs of the many says that at some point in time, torture has it's value, but those would be rare.I am still working on a scenario that shows torture as moral in some instances. It may be that the answer is yes.I think that we could build a scenario that would say that yes, there may be instances where it could be moral but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.Let us see if this scenario can help us decide.A criminal has hidden an A bomb in your city that will go off in less time than it takes to evacuate a million people. He admits this to his torturer.I think it may be morally justified then to try to torture the information out of him.The good of the many in this case would need to be placed above the good of the one to be tortured and even above the good mental health of the one doing the torturing.Do you agree or is it more moral not to try to save a million people?Regards
DL