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Author Topic:   radical liberals (aka liberal commies) vs ultra conservatives (aka nutjobs)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 300 (661966)
05-11-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Taq
05-11-2012 11:25 AM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
First, there is no ban on torture that I know of that is a human right except in those States, societies or cultures that have agreed that within their State, culture or society they will ban torture. Even there it is not really a right, rather a proscription on torturing another person and usually even that is limited and has exceptions.
Second, the ban on worshiping other Gods was a tribal rule, and applied only within the membership of that particular culture and society (they were not a State).

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:25 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:53 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 272 of 300 (661967)
05-11-2012 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Taq
05-11-2012 11:20 AM


Re: More false analogies.
They claimed that rights were being violated, rights that were afforded British Citizens living in England. The rights were those that had been established by the State known as Great Britain.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:20 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:57 AM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 273 of 300 (661971)
05-11-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
05-11-2012 11:31 AM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
First, there is no ban on torture that I know of that is a human right except in those States, societies or cultures that have agreed that within their State, culture or society they will ban torture.
The ban would be a function of States just as any law or treaty. However, the human right to not face torture is not a product of the State. There is a subtle yet important difference between the two. Human rights exist whether or not a State, culture, or society recognizes them, at least according to the arguments that Locke put forward.
Playing the Godwin card, there was no agreed upon international rule that said you could not kill Jews by the millions. So how were Nazi officials convicted of crimes where no law existed? I think it is quite simple. Human rights are above any State or society. There is no excuse for violating human rights. Not having a law protecting human rights is NOT an excuse for human rights violations.
So yes, bans and procedures are a product of the State. However, these bans and procedures are based on human rights that exist outside of the State.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 11:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 274 of 300 (661972)
05-11-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by jar
05-11-2012 11:34 AM


Re: More false analogies.
They claimed that rights were being violated, rights that were afforded British Citizens living in England. The rights were those that had been established by the State known as Great Britain.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."--Declaration of Independence
Hmm. I see a reference to self-evident and inalienable rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 11:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:03 PM Taq has replied
 Message 279 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 12:16 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 275 of 300 (661973)
05-11-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Taq
05-11-2012 11:53 AM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
And so far you have not shown that there is any 'human right not to face torture' as anyone who has ever witnessed or experienced the angst of a first love should know.
The Nazi's were convicted by their conquers who applied the conquers standards. The trials were a clear example of might makes right.
Nor were the conquers all that united about how Jews should be treated. Roosevelt for example was perfectly happy to suggest that Jews should be limited in employment opportunities in specific professions, specifically the areas of law, medicine and teaching.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:53 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 276 of 300 (661975)
05-11-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Taq
05-11-2012 11:57 AM


Re: More false analogies.
Yes and also to the fact that it was a position and belief held by a specific State, culture or society. "We", the signers of this document, hold these beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:57 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:15 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 277 of 300 (661977)
05-11-2012 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by jar
05-11-2012 12:02 PM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
The Nazi's were convicted by their conquers who applied the conquers standards.
How so? What were these standards?
Nor were the conquers all that united about how Jews should be treated.
They were united on human rights as it related to Nazi Germany. They were united in the conclusion that the genocide of the Jews was wrong. This was made clear in the Moscow Document:
quote:
They noted that "evidence of atrocities, massacres and cold-blooded mass executions which are being perpetrated by Hitlerite forces in many of the countries they have overrun and from which they are now being steadily expelled". They went on to state that Germans would be sent back to the countries where they had committed their crimes and "judged on the spot by the peoples whom they have outraged".
This lead to the drafting of the London Charter which included three types of crimes: war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 278 of 300 (661978)
05-11-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
05-11-2012 12:03 PM


Re: More false analogies.
Yes and also to the fact that it was a position and belief held by a specific State, culture or society.
If they were simply a product of beliefs then they would not be self-evident nor inalienable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 279 of 300 (661979)
05-11-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Taq
05-11-2012 11:57 AM


Re: More false analogies.
I see a reference to self-evident and inalienable rights.
And the Founders were wrong as a matter of simple fact. Clearly the basic rights of which they spoke are not always self-evident, because there have been countless societies that did not have the. Likewise, obviously those rights are not inalienable, because there have been countless societies that alienated them.
The same way that they were wrong about the rights stemming from a Creator.
The key words were "We hold," not what comes afterward. So long as we agree that we have those rights, we have them. But they can be lost at any time by mutual agreement, or by tyranny. All that's needed to lose the Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional Amendment, or a takeover from a foreign power. And if you're referring to the basic three, "Life Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," well, those are all a joke already - we restrict all three on a daily basis. If those rights were truly "inalienable," we wouldn't ever put a single person in prison, we wouldn't execute anyone, and our social safety net would guarantee a fair minimum standard of living so that all citizens are freely able to pursue happiness instead of being stuck with two jobs just to keep the lights on and no chance to ever improve.
I thought I was the idealist.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 11:57 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:31 PM Rahvin has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 280 of 300 (661980)
05-11-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Taq
05-11-2012 12:12 PM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
Thanks for supporting my position by pointing out yet again that it was through the acts of a State, culture or society that rights are established.
And note that almost no Nazi's were sent back to the countries to be judged and even ther it is an example of a State, society or culture establishing standards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:12 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 281 of 300 (661981)
05-11-2012 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Taq
05-11-2012 12:15 PM


Re: More false analogies.
Why?
And you have not shown that any of those beliefs outlined are self-evident or inalienable.
And the document still says "We hold ..."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Taq, posted 05-11-2012 12:41 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 282 of 300 (661982)
05-11-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Rahvin
05-11-2012 12:16 PM


Re: More false analogies.
And the Founders were wrong as a matter of simple fact. Clearly the basic rights of which they spoke are not always self-evident, because there have been countless societies that did not have the. Likewise, obviously those rights are not inalienable, because there have been countless societies that alienated them.
Did Pluto only exist once we discovered it, or did it exist prior to its discovery? Human rights are the same. Enlightenment philosophers like Locke discovered human rights. They did not invent them.
Secondly, how does a society take away human rights?
The key words were "We hold," not what comes afterward. So long as we agree that we have those rights, we have them.
We always have them. What the agreement allows for is a State that protects those rights.
But they can be lost at any time by mutual agreement, or by tyranny. All that's needed to lose the Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional Amendment, or a takeover from a foreign power.
A foreign power or tyrant could only violate our human rights, not take them away.
And if you're referring to the basic three, "Life Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," well, those are all a joke already - we restrict all three on a daily basis. If those rights were truly "inalienable," we wouldn't ever put a single person in prison, we wouldn't execute anyone, and our social safety net would guarantee a fair minimum standard of living so that all citizens are freely able to pursue happiness instead of being stuck with two jobs just to keep the lights on and no chance to ever improve.
What you are talking about is the social contract. Human rights are the ideal, and the social contract built on these human rights will always fall short of that ideal. I will not argue that all governments fall short of the ideal, but that doesn't make the ideals go away. Wiki actually has a decent write up of Locke's notion of the social contract:
quote:
John Locke's conception of the social contract differed from Hobbes' in several fundamental ways, retaining only the central notion that persons in a state of nature would willingly come together to form a state. Locke believed that individuals in a state of nature would be bound morally, by The Law of Nature, not to harm each other in their lives or possession, but without government to defend them against those seeking to injure or enslave them, people would have no security in their rights and would live in fear. Locke argued that individuals would agree to form a state that would provide a "neutral judge", acting to protect the lives, liberty, and property of those who lived within it. While Hobbes argued for near-absolute authority, Locke argued for inviolate freedom under law in his Second Treatise of Government. Locke argued that government's legitimacy comes from the citizens' delegation to the government of their right of self-defense (of "self-preservation"). The government thus acts as an impartial, objective agent of that self-defense, rather than each man acting as his own judge, jury, and executionerthe condition in the state of nature. In this view, government derives its "just powers from the consent [i.e, delegation] of the governed,".
The government is allowed to govern the interplay of these liberties as they are delegated by the citizens.
I thought I was the idealist.
To be fair, I am more of a pragmatist than I let on in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 12:16 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Rahvin, posted 05-11-2012 12:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 283 of 300 (661983)
05-11-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
05-11-2012 12:23 PM


Re: More false analogies.
And you have not shown that any of those beliefs outlined are self-evident or inalienable.
We have already covered this ground. If you found my arguments to be unsatisfactory then it may be better to agree to disagree rather than repeat previous posts. You disagree that empathy and reason can be used to conclude that human rights exist. I think they can be used. I don't see a way past this sticking point.
And the document still says "We hold ..."
Help me see this from your point of view. What should the document say if human rights really are self-evidence and inalienable? What are you not seeing in this document that should be there if human rights really are inherent and inalienable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 2:00 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 284 of 300 (661984)
05-11-2012 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
05-11-2012 12:21 PM


Re: except of course, the ten commandments are unrelated to rights.
Thanks for supporting my position by pointing out yet again that it was through the acts of a State, culture or society that rights are established.
It wasn't the State, culture, or society that established those rights, only the procedures that would be used to punish those who violated human rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 2:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 285 of 300 (661985)
05-11-2012 12:50 PM


Time for Summations?
It seems that this thread is stuck in neutral. Do you guys feel like it is time for summations? If so, I would be more than happy to write mine first and let you guys tear it apart.

  
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