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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 511 of 563 (917603)
04-11-2024 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Percy
04-11-2024 4:35 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
It often feels like your understanding of what people say is at serious odds with what they actually said.

--Percy
You never complained about historian's methodology when it comes to the existence of Jesus?
Because those who claim he never existed always complain about the methodology of the 99% of historians that say he did exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 4:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 512 of 563 (917604)
04-11-2024 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:01 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
This is a substantial misunderstanding of what you just quoted me saying.
So do you deny the human existence of Jesus, 2000 years ago, or not?
quote:
I don't know who the "Jesus Mythers" are. If that's Carrier and Price then, as I said earlier, I'm not familiar with them and was certainly not trying to capture their spirit.
You also deny you ever complained about the methodology of mainstream historians, when it comes to the existence of Jesus.
quote:
Again, I've heard the names of Carrier and Price and that's it. I have no idea what their "big issue" is and so could never have commented on it. Your understanding of what people are saying often does not match what they are actually saying.
I find it hard to believe that somebody who claims Jesus never existed:
A - claims he never complained about the methodology of mainstream historians
B - has no opinion on Richard Carrier and Robert M Price

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 513 of 563 (917605)
04-11-2024 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:15 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 511 writes:
You never complained about historian's methodology when it comes to the existence of Jesus?
I'm afraid not.
Because those who claim he never existed always complain about the methodology of the 99% of historians that say he did exist.
It's more likely that Jesus isn't even within the purview of 99% of historians.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:15 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:42 PM Percy has replied
 Message 515 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:46 PM Percy has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 514 of 563 (917606)
04-11-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:34 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
Name me a single (known ethnic) Jewish historian that says Jesus did not exist.
Israel has a ton of specialists that are massively interested in Biblical studies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 515 of 563 (917607)
04-11-2024 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:34 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
How many Ivy League historians ever doubted Jesus existed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 516 of 563 (917608)
04-11-2024 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:42 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge writes:
Name me a single (known ethnic) Jewish historian that says Jesus did not exist.
I don't think I could name even one contemporary historian, let alone an ethnic Jewish historian who happens to be single.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:42 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 517 of 563 (917609)
04-11-2024 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:49 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
You seem to be very evasive when it comes to bringing some sort of methodological criticism to the table.
You don't have to be a technician to have technique.
You have a fringe view, and you act like methodology is almost an afterthought.
Why don't you trust the near unanimity of historians, who work in the field?
Why is the massive consensus wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 8:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 518 of 563 (917610)
04-11-2024 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:46 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 515 writes:
How many Ivy League historians ever doubted Jesus existed?
You seemed to be focused on the argument from authority, a common fallacy. Discussion here should focus on building arguments around evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:46 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 520 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 6:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 519 of 563 (917611)
04-11-2024 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
You seemed to be focused on the argument from authority, a common fallacy. Discussion here should focus on building arguments around evidence.

--Percy
Oh, I was going to allow you to pick and choose radical historians, but you need to have an idea what is wrong with the mainstream ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 520 of 563 (917612)
04-11-2024 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
There are some ethnic Jewish scholars who deny Jesus existed. I need to check my book inventory. Some books I have never read yet come to mind.
But all deniers are fringe.
Robert Eisenmann has moved much closer to the myther viewpoint, but he is not one I am referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 521 of 563 (917613)
04-11-2024 6:56 PM


Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16065
Theodoric never told us that!

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 7:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 522 of 563 (917614)
04-11-2024 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 6:56 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
I have never told you anything about Carrier or Price or any other mythicists. I have no idea what you are going on about and doubt you do either.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 6:56 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 7:28 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 523 of 563 (917615)
04-11-2024 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 522 by Theodoric
04-11-2024 7:24 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
I thought you said you have his book On The Historicity Of Jesus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 7:24 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 7:36 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 527 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 524 of 563 (917616)
04-11-2024 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 7:28 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
LamarkNewAge in Message 523 writes:
I thought you said you have his book On The Historicity Of Jesus
After doing a search on this thread, if Theodoric ever said that it wasn't here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 7:28 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 525 of 563 (917617)
04-11-2024 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
You added to your message after I read it.
LamarkNewAge in Message 517 writes:
You have a fringe view, and you act like methodology is almost an afterthought.
I don't know why you would say that latter part.
Why don't you trust the near unanimity of historians, who work in the field?
Are they really historians, though? Or are they religious scholars? Primarily Biblical religious scholars.
Why is the massive consensus wrong?
The primary reason is that religious beliefs prevent objectivity. Another reason is that the consensus itself causes its own feedback loop, strengthening faith in the belief.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM Percy has replied

  
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