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Author Topic:   Why do right?
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 121 of 168 (380927)
01-29-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by anastasia
01-29-2007 12:15 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
Religion keeps me so a'tremblin' at the gates of Hell that survival is all I can think of
You say this with a smiley so i am not sure what you believe.
However I did find your comment that religion allows you to survive interesting if not alarming. Can you elaborate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 12:15 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 1:17 PM iceage has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 122 of 168 (380946)
01-29-2007 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by iceage
01-29-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Right and wrong
I was being sarcastic, Iceage. I am implying that I need God to tell me to feel empathy...which I do, but he has already naturally given me that ability as part of my moral compass. I am just so unusual as to attribute this to Him rather than a natural survival instinct. I believe morality has more to do with the spirit than the survival of the body.
Ringo has a good Sarcasm Detector; sorry for the confusion.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 01-29-2007 12:21 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 6:21 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 127 by iceage, posted 01-29-2007 8:57 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 01-30-2007 4:39 AM anastasia has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 123 of 168 (381079)
01-29-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
01-29-2007 1:17 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Anastasia writes:
I believe morality has more to do with the spirit than the survival of the body.
What could possibly prove to you that this is not the case? How about, showing that animals, which I assume you don't believe have a God-fearing spirit, have attributes that we would associate with morality?
To quote Sam Harris in his review of Francis Collins' book:
quote:
What if mice showed greater distress at the suffering of familiar mice than unfamiliar ones? (They do.) What if monkeys will starve themselves to prevent their cage-mates from receiving painful shocks? (They will.) What if chimps have a demonstrable sense of fairness when receiving food rewards? (They have.) Wouldn’t these be precisely the sorts of findings one would expect if our morality were the product of evolution?

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 1:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 7:03 PM Doddy has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 124 of 168 (381090)
01-29-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Doddy
01-29-2007 6:21 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Interesting, but you can't prove that mice, chimps. and oher animals which we inhumanely use for these studies, have ever felt guilt when they did not do these things, and have ever had a choice to do otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 6:21 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 7:08 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 142 by nator, posted 01-30-2007 9:23 AM anastasia has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 125 of 168 (381091)
01-29-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by anastasia
01-29-2007 7:03 PM


Re: Right and wrong
We also can't prove that our fellow human beings consciously choose the moral options either.
Did you also read my similar post in another thread?
Edited by Doddy Curumehtar, : No reason given.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 7:03 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 7:35 PM Doddy has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 126 of 168 (381098)
01-29-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Doddy
01-29-2007 7:08 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Doddy writes:
We also can't prove that our fellow human beings consciously choose the moral options either.
I have seen the entirety of the similar thread.
Please tell me what you mean by 'moral options'. Oh, wait, you are referring to your little 'Der Mensch kann was er will' ?
Ok, fine, here we go again. Hitler had no choice, Mother Teresa had no choice, both did what their Personal Moral Chooser Function told them to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 7:08 PM Doddy has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 127 of 168 (381109)
01-29-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
01-29-2007 1:17 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Ana writes:
Ringo has a good Sarcasm Detector
Oh good. My detector is out for repair.
Ana writes:
he has already naturally given me that ability as part of my moral compass
Keep in mind, you have to integrate into your theory that numerous "lower" animals have what we would call a moral compass in lesser and varying degrees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 1:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 9:09 PM iceage has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 128 of 168 (381113)
01-29-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by iceage
01-29-2007 8:57 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Iceage writes:
Keep in mind, you have to integrate into your theory that numerous "lower" animals have what we would call a moral compass in lesser and varying degrees.
In another thread, Doddy Curumehtar has said just this. He has shown examples of chimps and mice exhibiting what we consider moral behavior. I myself have seen the way my birds react to the death of their mates. I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior, or that they felt any guilt when they did not respend to the death of their mates. In fact, a non-response on the part of a bird would be evidence to us that they had no empathy, and not that they had a choice and chose not to empathize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by iceage, posted 01-29-2007 8:57 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 9:56 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 135 by iceage, posted 01-29-2007 11:40 PM anastasia has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 129 of 168 (381119)
01-29-2007 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
01-29-2007 9:09 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Anastasia writes:
I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior
Neither do you have such proof for humans, such as criminals. It may be that they chose not to feel for their victims through pure callousness (which raises the argument of why they do that), or it may be that they can't feel empathy due to the structure of their brains. We really can't infer what emotions a human or animal is feeling unless we know for sure their brain works like ours.
Now, I would argue however that it is likely that apes do have such emotions as remorse and guilt, although maybe not to the extent that humans do, because they share many key features of our prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain consistently shown to be involved in feelings of remorse and making moral choices).
Anyway, this is getting into animal consciousness, so is getting off topic somewhat.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 9:09 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 11:22 PM Doddy has replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 168 (381127)
01-29-2007 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
01-25-2007 12:12 AM


We are the prisoners of our own fantasies Do you mean kind of like brainwashing throughout the generations...? I wonder what the world would be like if we were taught to have no guilt, no response upon our actions... Lets say that a religion must kill children or Sacrafice another human being, to do the right thing for their God, we see it wrong and as murder... Good question I confused myself!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 12:12 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 11:27 PM nyenye has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 131 of 168 (381134)
01-29-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Doddy
01-29-2007 9:56 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Doddy writes:
Neither do you have such proof for humans, such as criminals. It may be that they chose not to feel for their victims through pure callousness (which raises the argument of why they do that), or it may be that they can't feel empathy due to the structure of their brains. We really can't infer what emotions a human or animal is feeling unless we know for sure their brain works like ours
You don't have proof that you feel guilt? Are you not ever a criminal yoursef? Please do not be so high and mighty. You know nothing of criminals to judge that their brain works any differently.
If you are reffering to serial killers, well, that is obvious. If they don't know right from wrong, they can't be judged, yes? They are considered insane. Those who are found to be sane are considered to have had a choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 9:56 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Doddy, posted 01-29-2007 11:31 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 132 of 168 (381135)
01-29-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by nyenye
01-29-2007 10:35 PM


Nyeusigrube writes:
We are the prisoners of our own fantasies Do you mean kind of like brainwashing throughout the generations...? I wonder what the world would be like if we were taught to have no guilt, no response upon our actions... Lets say that a religion must kill children or Sacrafice another human being, to do the right thing for their God, we see it wrong and as murder... Good question I confused myself!
In four and a half sentences you have confused yourself? Why not hit 'Reset Fields', start again, use quote brackets, and if you are still confused, delete?
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by nyenye, posted 01-29-2007 10:35 PM nyenye has replied

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 Message 133 by nyenye, posted 01-29-2007 11:30 PM anastasia has not replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 168 (381136)
01-29-2007 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by anastasia
01-29-2007 11:27 PM


Thinking about other things that lead from what I stated, they go off subject though, sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 11:27 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 134 of 168 (381137)
01-29-2007 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by anastasia
01-29-2007 11:22 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Anastasia writes:
You know nothing of criminals to judge that their brain works any differently.
Their brain must work differently to non-criminals, because not every brain commands its body to commit crimes. We are even more in the dark with animals, as we have not experienced what it is like to be one. Any assumption that they do or don't have a choice is speculation until the problem of consciousness is understood more fully. What we do know however is that animals, especially apes, often act like moral humans would.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 11:22 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 12:02 AM Doddy has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 135 of 168 (381140)
01-29-2007 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
01-29-2007 9:09 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Ana writes:
I myself have seen the way my birds react to the death of their mates.
Can you elaborate on this or did I miss it in a prior post? Birds can be quite intelligent - of course they can also be bird brains.
Ana writes:
I have no proof or evidence that they had a choice in this behavior, or that they felt any guilt when they did not respond to the death of their mates
Sounds like you focusing in on choice and guilt as the unique component of human morality that is missing in animals, is that it?
As far as feeling guilty goes I know when my dog would do something "wrong" like peeing on the floor or getting into the cake left on the table she would exhibit mannerism that one can only attribute to guilt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 9:09 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 12:12 AM iceage has replied

  
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