Why do right?

I ask again, are you, or are you not, a criminal?Never drove past the speed limit?Never got drunk and loud?Never tried drugs?Don't judge criminals, especially if they just have a brain-malfunction. Many times they are only caught in the middle, young, scared, or any number of things which has nothing to do with any brain-malfunction.And yes, I am sure that apes feel bad when they lie, fornicate, steal from each other, etc.

Birds are bird-brained, yes, they fly into walls constantly, and mirrors, and windows. That can be attributed to bad eye-sight and disorientation when let out of a cage. They often quickly adapt.Birds are quiet and subdued after a death, will sit by a dead body, and stay with a sick bird, preening its feathers and 'cuddling'. They tend to do this more with birds they have been reared with or mated, than strange new-comers.My point is that I need no chimp spychologist to show me that animals have these behaviors, and that knowing about these behaviors has never threatened my belief in God. I don't know if dogs feel guilty, or just act submissively because of the cause/effect remembered in their actions. Pee=punishment, therefore, submissive behavior.

Interesting observation. Thanks for sharing it.I guess the whole point in this is that we see inchoate forms of morality, emapthy and compassion in "lower" animals. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that these same behaviors that are exhibited in humans are only different by degree.I believe that these qualities are an emergent property of intelligence...In the same way, that life is an emergent property of chemistry and chemistry is an emergent property of atomic level behaviors....Extra-terrestrial life that is more intelligent and advanced than us, may look at us like you are now looking at animals - with a sense of moral superiority and sense of specialness.They may view our amoral (immoral?) carnivorous ways, scientific animal testing and industrial farming practices with horror and conclude that we are not spirit filled and outside of gods concern.

So without a god you would become, what?

I think she means that she needs God and He gives her a conscience. In context, an atheist may not believe in God, but God is still there giving them a conscience as well. Does that frame the issue?Kids don't always need Daddy watching to behave. They are capable of behaving when Daddy is invisible.

Hmm.I see.To rephrase.If there were no xian god, what would become of moral Ana?

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Interesting, but you can't prove that mice, chimps. and oher animals which we inhumanely use for these studies, have ever felt guilt when they did not do these things, and have ever had a choice to do otherwise.

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You Catholics really do love your guilt, don't you?The point is, ana, that our closest relatives, the great apes, have emotional lives and codes of conduct that are very similar to our own.

Of course, who wouldn't? Guilt is after-all the one thing which lets us know we've made a mistake. But you don't know that they have codes, only conduct. Why can't you just belive that God gave the right conduct to all animals, even those without choice? We have a code because we have choice. They do right naturally.

Bored, as I now am with this discussion - God.

Yes, the 'extra-terrestrail life' is known as, for now, God.

When a little green man parks his flying saucer on your lawn and says, "Take me to your leader," will you ask to see the nail prints in his hands? When he tells you to kill your people to make room for his, will you do it?

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If the little green man can prove that he has been behind all of the actions prescribed to a God, at least to my satisfaction, I will abandon my idea that there is some other God.

That's a little unfair, isn't it? You demand proof from the extraterrestrial you have met but not from the One you haven't met?But the point here is about right and wrong. If the little green man could prove that he was the One you've been calling God, would you accept his word about right and wrong?If it turned out that you had misunderstood his message and had right and wrong all turned around from what he wanted, would you just change your ideas about right and wrong?That seems like a much weaker foundation for right and wrong than plain old survival.

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Then withdraw from the discussion.

Precisely! Welcome to the agnostic way of thinking.The Bible, the sacraments, the traditions, the fallible male hierarchy, the sordid history, the misogynistic agenda, the inconsistent philosophy, the absurd myths don't even come close to a reasonable criteria to proving that the invisible blood thirsty angry guy in the sky of the bible is god.