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Author Topic:   Labor Pains In Colorado
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 136 of 166 (657076)
03-25-2012 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 2:10 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Yeah, those markets where we got our butts kicked were probably sour anyways.
Our butt kicked? In what specifically...AND, how did it lose top ranking? Poor product? Low quality product? Or, not being able to keep up with low to extremely low wages in 3rd world countries who's workers are being exploited?
In other words, sure other countries are "beating" us in TV production, for example. But then again those countries aren't winning because of a better ability to create a better product but because of shitty wages paid to workers that make their products cheaper.
It's not fair to say you're making more TV's than the US and thus have kicked the US's ass in it when your workers are below the poverty line and some are starving.
Instead you chose to ask for the name of the new "Top Dog". Were you expecting Frako to brag about his own country?
No, I was looking for an actual answer. I did NOT expect someone from Slovania to brag about anything to me unless their point is to make me laugh hysterically.
Really? And when people in the US say similar things, what is their POV?
A different one.
Whatever motivates Frako to say what he says, he does have a point.
No he doesn't. The US was NEVER Top Dog in ALL industries as he claimed, so the rest is irrelevant.
And again, boasting about 3rd world countries who are exploiting workers as being better at producing products is a tad bit sickening.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 2:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:26 PM onifre has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 166 (657077)
03-25-2012 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 12:35 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
The middle class includes people who are currently able to live beyond paycheck-to-paycheck, but who, given fairly minor changes in circumstances might well find themselves living on the street. It is certainly the case that people in the middle class have descendants and relatives that are at risk of being out on the street.
People on the street give a rat's ass about what happens to people just above them because they aspire to join their ranks at some point and because many of them are from middle class backgrounds. And if by grace, you are living in your mom's basement, surely you care about what happens to mom.
I must be missing your real point, because the attitude reflected in your post as I read it seems incredibly short sighted and crass.
I suggest that you actually get out an actually rub some elbows with the homeless in your area and find out how they really feel before spouting off academic nonsense.
Sure. People care what happens to their loved ones and their friends. But that is not what Phat is talking about, and it's now what I'm talking about either.
Phat seems to think that the U.S. as a nation should care what happens to the middle classnot just its people.
But why should we care whether there is a middle class or not? Why should the poor as a group be invested in making sure middle class people remain middle class? Why should the rich be concerned with keeping people in the middle class?
Why should Phat's salary matter to anyone other than Phat?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:36 PM Jon has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 166 (657078)
03-25-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by onifre
03-25-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Our butt kicked? In what specifically...AND, how did it lose top ranking? Poor product? Low quality product? Or, not being able to keep up with low to extremely low wages in 3rd world countries who's workers are being exploited?
Yes. Not being able to competitively manufacture a product because of not being able to pay tiny wages would constitute a butt kicking if the goal is participating in the market for that product.
But then again those countries aren't winning because of a better ability to create a better product but because of shitty wages paid to workers that make their products cheaper.
I don't see the part of your post that disputes my point.
Nobody in the US is making TVs, and as a result, nobody in the US is in a position to come up with technological improvements that the manufacturers come up as a direct result of doing day to day manufacturing. I don't care what our excuses are for being in that position. Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display. The capability to make those things does not exist in this country.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:11 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:46 PM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 139 of 166 (657079)
03-25-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jon
03-25-2012 3:13 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
People care what happens to their loved ones and their friends.
Is that the only thing I discussed in my post? I find your response to completely miss the mark.
As I expressed, the lower classes' lot is intimately intertwined with the lot of the those people who are barely avoiding joining them. With the exception of those poor people who expect to hit the lottery next week, there is ample reason for them to care about the middle class.
It seems to me that you believe that the lower class and homeless share your own beliefs about how society ought to be organized. My impression and experience is that such beliefs are not reality. Most homeless people want a fair shot at an opportunity and not a new society where everything is free.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 3:13 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 4:43 PM NoNukes has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 140 of 166 (657081)
03-25-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Not being able to competitively manufacture a product because of not being able to pay tiny wages would constitute a butt kicking if the goal is participating in the market for that product.
And thus my point in the statement you quoted. We could, at any point, top any country. We lack zero resources. There is nothing stopping us, except one thing, there is a value placed on the American worker.
I don't see the part of your post that disputes my point.
Funny, that seems to be everyone's opinion here.
I don't care what our excuses are for being in that position.
Sure you do, it's the same reason YOU get paid a decent wage and work a reasonable amount of hours. It's the same reason our 8 year olds don't have to work in a sweat shop or lose a hand in a manufacturing plant. I wouldnt call that an "excuse."
Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display.
We absolutely could, and DO have all the necessary tools for it. What we don't have is children ages 8-12 willing to lose an arm for it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 4:53 PM onifre has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 166 (657082)
03-25-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
there is ample reason for them to care about the middle class.
Then present some of those reasons.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 5:01 PM Jon has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 166 (657083)
03-25-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by onifre
03-25-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
We absolutely could, and DO have all the necessary tools for it. What we don't have is children ages 8-12 willing to lose an arm for it.
I find this accusation laughable.
Have you ever visited a Korean LCD factory? Because it turns out that I have done so. I have also worked closely with the Korean engineers who file patents on the involved technology. It is in fact the case that Korean engineers live on much lower salaries than do US engineers. I'd suggest a salary deflation of about 3. Korean patent attorneys are paid at a similar discount.
Of course in the US, any attempt to pay similar wages will simply result in attorneys and engineers finding other places to work. But by no account are Koreans making LCDs involved in slave labor and nor is the labor carried out by 8-12 year olds. Nor are the workers risking life and limb.
The LCD factories are highly automated, and the manufacturing requires clean room and near clean room conditions. Young college graduates consider those manufacturing positions to be great jobs.
I'm not aware that Koreans LCD manufacturers are even being accused of child labor or labor abuses of the type you are suggesting. You simply don't know whereof you speak.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:46 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 6:33 PM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 166 (657085)
03-25-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jon
03-25-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Then present some of those reasons.
Jon, I've already done so.
FWIW, I work with unemployed homeless veterans and unemployed seniors on a daily basis.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 4:43 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 5:57 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 166 (657089)
03-25-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 5:01 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Then present some of those reasons.
Jon, I've already done so.
Then point me to the post where you did, because I cannot find anywhere a presentation of these reasons.
I am a poor person. Grew up as a poor person. Know a lot of poor people. Can't think of any of them who actually think people deserve to live in 'regular' houses instead of trailer houses or apartments. Can't think of any of them who actually think people deserve to drive shiny cars instead of older less attractive ones.
In fact, I just cannot think of any reason why anyone would think it is imperative that people look out for someone else's standard of living when that standard is already much higher than their ownthe excepted reason being if you are one of those people wanting your standard of living to be looked out for.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 5:01 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 145 of 166 (657091)
03-25-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 4:53 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Didn't mean to make it specific to LCD manufacturing in Korea.
However, while there may not be children in the LCD plant specifically, there ARE children in other plants in Korea. Also, the adults are ridiculously over worked and extremely under paid. Further more, how do the workers even get to work?
For more: The World's Hardest-Working Countries
quote:
If you thought you worked long hours, consider 39-year-old Lee from South Korea. A civil servant at the ministry of agriculture and fisheries, Lee gets up at 5:30 a.m. every day, gets dressed and makes a two-hour commute into Seoul to start work at 8:30 a.m. After sitting at a computer for most of the day, Lee typically gets out the door at 9 p.m., or even later.
By the time he gets home, it's just a matter of jumping in the shower and collapsing into bed, before starting the whole routine all over again, about four hours later. This happens six days a week, and throughout almost all of the year, as Lee gets just three days of vacation.
That's right. Three days.
Point is: we DO have the means to make anything and be on top, and that was my point. But we don't work our workers to death, under terrible conditions. And even under normal conditions, the wages are fair, the hours are fair and the vacation time is fair.
quote:
Of course in the US, any attempt to pay similar wages will simply result in attorneys and engineers finding other places to work.
Which, having friends who are both engineers and lawyers, the money they get here isn't ALL that much either. So less is clearly unacceptable for someone who has a degree in either profession.
So, it's again nothing to say that you're on top when everyone bellow you is suffering. And boasting such success is a cheap victory.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 4:53 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 6:51 PM onifre has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 166 (657092)
03-25-2012 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by onifre
03-25-2012 6:33 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Didn't mean to make it specific to LCD manufacturing in Korea.
Well, that does happen to be the example we were discussing. I take it that your argument does not apply to the LCD manufacturing industry.
I'll also note that your example is about a 39 year civil servant. What I find hilarious is the that as a patent attorney in DC, I found it necessary to embark on a 1.5 hour (round trip) commute to DC and to work 10-12 hours a day.
Which, having friends who are both engineers and lawyers, the money they get here isn't ALL that much either.
Engineers, at least those who can find work, routinely make something approaching 100k after about 15 years of experience. Entry level attorneys in at least some markets make nearly twice that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 6:33 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM NoNukes has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 147 of 166 (657094)
03-25-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 6:51 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Well, that does happen to be the example we were discussing.
No, you said LCD's AND smartphones. When I gave you my reply you focused only on LCD's. I guess because you know full well that phones DO employ child labor.
I take it that your argument does not apply to the LCD manufacturing industry.
And I take it your argument does not apply to smartphones?
What I find hilarious is the that as a patent attorney in DC, I found it necessary to embark on a 1.5 hour (round trip) commute to DC and to work 10-12 hours a day.
Again you focus on just one portion of it. What about vacation time? Wages? I'm sure you could have afforded a car? Or maybe you were in your air conditioned car? How nice were your lunches? How nice was your office? Etc...
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 6:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:37 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:46 PM onifre has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 166 (657096)
03-25-2012 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by onifre
03-25-2012 7:09 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
No, you said LCD's AND smartphones.
That's not quite right. I said big screen LCDs and smartphone displays, both of which are flat screen displays that may well be LCDs from the same Koren, Japanese, Taiwanese sources.
me writes:
Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display.
Perhaps you are thinking about how iPhones are assembled in China, but I would expect (without having checked) that the Chinese are importing the actual display devices.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 166 (657098)
03-25-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by onifre
03-25-2012 7:09 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Again you focus on just one portion of it. What about vacation time? Wages? I'm sure you could have afforded a car? Or maybe you were in your air conditioned car? How nice were your lunches? How nice was your office? Etc...
Yes I could afford a couple of cars, with one of them being > 20 years old, with an air conditioner that does not work. My comment was not intended to be a complaint. But surely compensation that was 1/3 of what I was getting paid would not be considered slave labor.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:56 PM NoNukes has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 150 of 166 (657101)
03-25-2012 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 7:46 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
I don't even know what we're debating anymore.
My point was that the US can be on top of any industry but, worker conditions prevent us from doing so and NOT that we are just not that good anymore.
Also, the US was never leading in ALL industries so that original point is moot.
Anything else we have been discussing has completely side-tracked that.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 8:05 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied

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