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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 316 (253211)
10-19-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Yaro
10-19-2005 7:44 PM


Re: *BUMP*
lol, I was done with your post after I read
Lets leave out love and all the other high-minded crap. Lets talk about eating and shitting.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Yaro, posted 10-19-2005 7:44 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Yaro, posted 10-19-2005 10:07 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 272 of 316 (253213)
10-19-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by joshua221
10-19-2005 8:47 PM


You can't ignore the bulldog chewing your buttock
A response to message #238 and #239 if you please, Prophex.
I don't think you want to attract moderator attention again.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-19-2005 08:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:47 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by joshua221, posted 10-20-2005 1:19 PM nator has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 273 of 316 (253231)
10-19-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by joshua221
10-19-2005 8:48 PM


Re: *BUMP*
It was a serious question Prophex, though told with some levity.
A culinary experience can be deeply emotional, plesureable, and down right life changing. Now, does the fact that this experience is generated by purely naturalistic and physical needs make it any less profound?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:48 PM joshua221 has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 274 of 316 (253279)
10-20-2005 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by joshua221
10-19-2005 8:38 PM


Re: A different approach
prophex writes:
It's not as much the love itself, but the intentions behind the love given.
But if it all comes from on high, then how not-fake are your intentions anyway? Are they your intentions? Or are you a puppet on a string?
Let's try the different approach again:
prophex writes:
It's not as much the love itself, but the intentions behind the love given.
Same thing: fake and real intentions feel the same. Either intentions are fake or intentions are real. But you can never know which is which. All you can do, in your attempts to wriggle yourself out of this tight spot, is jump from one aspect of your mind to another: from love to feeling, from feeling to intentions and from intentions back to love. There's no way out of your mind, so you cannot know whether it's all fake or real.
But remember that this is all under the assumption that you were right about the causal connection between evolution and faked love. If you would entertain the thought that such a link does not really exist, and that evolution can be true while at the same time love is real, then your problem is solved.
Love as a result of evolution is no less real than your physical body, which is also a product of evolution. After all, it's your body, your love, and your experience of it. No strings attached.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:38 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:03 PM Parasomnium has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 275 of 316 (253288)
10-20-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by joshua221
10-19-2005 8:47 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Forgive my more nihilist previous post. It paints an innacurate position of my own.
I don't agree life is worthless, or not special. I think it all is.
When astronomers look at the stars for us, they seldom find a population of habitable planets. Therefore, it's reasonable to atleast assume we're a pretty rare phenomenon.
If I went into nature now, and it was a sunny day, and I could see the crisp peaks of the mountains, the sun on the sea, as it, in the distance, fades into a glorious eternal haze, then I would be in heaven. This feeling, is not fake if there is no God, That is just stupid. This feeling is proven as real, whereas God is a true vacuous statement; a tautology at best. If I believe in God, I'll go to heaven.
So my pantheist-type feeling, is very valid indeed, and very special because it's real, and not based on a fairy story.
I feel this way around nature, because I am nature. I am conscious nature. I breathe it in, and breathe it out(nature), and I'll always be a part of it, whether I'm dead or alive, as I always was a part of it, in some other genetic form, previously, right down the line to the beginning.
For me, this nature is my heaven, and I don't mind dying that much, as if I did, then my feeling would be small and childish if it didn't recognise something more than itself; as the feeling will be worth even more, if in reality, it lasts forever.
Maybe you call your special feeling Christ. Now that's okay -- that's your belief, and I should have conceded that earlier on.
But this is my own path. Yours is yours. As Jar says, it's ajourney, and I hope yours is prosperous, and I wish you luck, and will now stop bothering you with posts.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-20-2005 09:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:47 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 2:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 316 (253389)
10-20-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by nator
10-19-2005 8:53 PM


I don't have to justify my actions of not responding directly, look at my posts, they are included. The Einstien one was not something I have responded to yet, I will later.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by nator, posted 10-19-2005 8:53 PM nator has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 316 (253715)
10-21-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 9:09 AM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
quote:
This feeling, is not fake if there is no God, That is just stupid. This feeling is proven as real, whereas God is a true vacuous statement; a tautology at best. If I believe in God, I'll go to heaven.
If there is no God, what would the feelings that you get out of the glorious mountains hold for your life, what significance exists in your feelings of glory as you contemplate the rocky peaks?
quote:
For me, this nature is my heaven, and I don't mind dying that much, as if I did, then my feeling would be small and childish if it didn't recognise something more than itself; as the feeling will be worth even more, if in reality, it lasts forever.
I love how you said this nature is my heaven. I have felt similar feelings on days where the wind is just right, and I can see beauty in the mountains around the hillsides, but if you died, these feelings would die with you, and your experiences would be lost to an unrealistic gap in logic, all of humanity's feelings would dwindle, and life on earth would lose all significance, besides what temporary satisfaction one can gain from it.
God destroys these ideals.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:09 AM mike the wiz has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 316 (253716)
10-21-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Parasomnium
10-20-2005 7:45 AM


From your conclusion
quote:
Love as a result of evolution is no less real than your physical body, which is also a product of evolution. After all, it's your body, your love, and your experience of it. No strings attached.
But the physical holds no significance to me or my feelings. Did you read the allegory of Plato?
There are never strings attached, only those of evolutionary restraint onto which meaningless beckons.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Parasomnium, posted 10-20-2005 7:45 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Yaro, posted 10-21-2005 3:10 PM joshua221 has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 279 of 316 (253720)
10-21-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by joshua221
10-21-2005 3:03 PM


Re: From your conclusion
Prophex,
Nothing has meaning unless it is physical. I could give you tons of morphine and I bet you would feel great, why is that? Because it's a physical chemical reaction occuring in your brain.
Don't you get that? There is no such thing as beyond physical, everything in our experience is tied to physical phenomena. Wonder why love is usually applied to those of the oposit (or prefered) sex?
Assuming your not gay, when is the last time you had a crush on a boy? It's probably not gonna happen eaither. Does that make love for a girl any less special or magical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:03 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:25 PM Yaro has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 316 (253731)
10-21-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Yaro
10-21-2005 3:10 PM


I didn't miss it.
quote:
Nothing has meaning unless it is physical.
The world is an illusion, what exists on this earth does not have significance, God, and Yourself, your soul are the things that have significance. In hinduism, the world is temporary, in Christianity, it is temporary, in both the world becomes an illusion, where many minds and hearts are devoted searching but finding no truth. Tell me something of this earth that gives one purpose! A true purpose. The only purpose, is the one to find oneself and to find God. The afterlife gives significance! This life is a life that cries out for purpose, for meaning, Searching what is physical, and what gives one satisfaction, will not result in truth.
Of course life on earth matters, everything someone does gives meaning to their future, we all shape our future. But this future is not limited to the earth as we know it. We are not to die and be buried, we are to find God, and reach Nirvana, to get to Heaven, to become glorious in knowing that we have led a good life.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Yaro, posted 10-21-2005 3:10 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Parasomnium, posted 10-21-2005 3:51 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 282 by Yaro, posted 10-21-2005 3:55 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 283 by Clark, posted 10-21-2005 4:16 PM joshua221 has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 281 of 316 (253738)
10-21-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by joshua221
10-21-2005 3:25 PM


Remember, the afterlife lasts an eternity...
prophex writes:
Tell me something of this earth that gives one purpose! A true purpose.
A lot of people's lives on this earth are quite miserable. A good purpose might be to try and change things for the better.
The only purpose, is the one to find oneself and to find God.
I think that's a bit selfish.
The afterlife gives significance! This life is a life that cries out for purpose, for meaning, Searching what is physical, and what gives one satisfaction, will not result in truth.
It's not the destination, but the journey that counts.
we are to find God, and reach Nirvana, to get to Heaven, to become glorious in knowing that we have led a good life.
Do you think that, after having spent the first million years of an eternity in heaven, those measly 70-odd years on earth at the beginning of your existence will still seem so important?

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:25 PM joshua221 has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 282 of 316 (253739)
10-21-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by joshua221
10-21-2005 3:25 PM


Re: I didn't miss it.
The world is an illusion, what exists on this earth does not have significance, God, and Yourself, your soul are the things that have significance.
I don't think god or soul has much to do with it at all. What exists on earth only has significance because we assign it such. It's important to us, thus it's significant.
As far as the world being an illusion, I don't think so. Our perception of the world is, in some sense, illusory; however those perceptions are formed as a reaction to stimuli seperate from our experience.
In other words, I may belive a gun is a bannana, but it dosn't make it any less lethal should someone pull the trigger.
In hinduism, the world is temporary, in Christianity, it is temporary, in both the world becomes an illusion, where many minds and hearts are devoted searching but finding no truth.
Hmmmm... I think that line applies more to christianity than to eastern religion... In any case, I disagree whole-heartedly.
Life is constantly getting better preciesly becaus of the fruitfull human persuit of truth seeking. Thrugh science, we have made our lives hundreds of times better than we could have otherwise hoped for. I think the search for truth has been far from futile.
Tell me something of this earth that gives one purpose! A true purpose.
Hmmmm... well, my spouse whome I love very dearly. My art work which gives me great joy and personal satisfaction. The enjoyment of everyday life. Good movies, friends. I don't see what 'truer' purposes you could have.
You tell me something prophex, what would you call a TRUE purpose?
The only purpose, is the one to find oneself and to find God. The afterlife gives significance!
The afterlife is a joke. If anything it robs life of it's value. What good is something that's so cheep? After all, if it's gonna go on for ever, why is life special in the first place?
We value things that are rare and temporary not things that are common and ubiquitous. The idea of an afterlife cheepens existence.
As to finding oneself, I think that's a worthy persuit. If your journey is anything like mine, you will probably learn that what you call "finding god" was really "finding yourself" all along. That is to say, you were god the whole time.
This life is a life that cries out for purpose, for meaning, Searching what is physical, and what gives one satisfaction, will not result in truth.
Really? I can't think of one non-psysical thing that has given me sattisfaction, can you? Name me a non-physical thing in your life that has given you satisfaction.
HEll! Even the feeling of satisfaction is a physical phenomena! I could give you a labodomy right now prophex, bet you will never be unhappy ever again
Of course life on earth matters, everything someone does gives meaning to their future, we all shape our future. But this future is not limited to the earth as we know it.
I'm afraid it is. Sorry, but if a meteor smashes our solar system out of existence tommorow, what significance did we ever have except to ourselves? As humans, we are very very small. To assign our lives cosmic importance is the height of arrogance.
We are not to die and be buried, we are to find God, and reach Nirvana, to get to Heaven, to become glorious in knowing that we have led a good life.
You can be glorious right now by living a good life! Hopeing for unreasonable nonsense like an endless consous existence is probably going to get you to waste more time. Get busy living prophex, you only get one chance. And that's why life is valuable!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:25 PM joshua221 has not replied

Clark
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 316 (253750)
10-21-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by joshua221
10-21-2005 3:25 PM


Re: I didn't miss it.
We are not to die and be buried, we are to find God, and reach Nirvana, to get to Heaven, to become glorious in knowing that we have led a good life
Are you sure you understand what Nirvana means?
Changing the subject ever so slightly, have you ever read anything about Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrance?
quote:
What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your live will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence--even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!' Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.' If this thought gained possession of you, it would change, you as you are or perhaps crush you.
Pretty cool, imo. It seems to me anyway, that there are potentially many ways to find meaning and purpose, to give the life we live gravity, without God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 3:25 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 4:56 PM Clark has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 316 (253779)
10-21-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Clark
10-21-2005 4:16 PM


Re: I didn't miss it.
Transendance of the mind.
I will probably focus on my new thread for a while, this one might get closed, or drift off.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Clark, posted 10-21-2005 4:16 PM Clark has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by nator, posted 10-21-2005 5:55 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 286 by nator, posted 10-21-2005 5:57 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 291 by nator, posted 10-25-2005 1:28 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 285 of 316 (253810)
10-21-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by joshua221
10-21-2005 4:56 PM


Re: I didn't miss it.
Two people are sitting in front of you.
They both report feeling the emotion of love.
One of them believes in God and the other doen't, but you don't have any way of knowing which is which.
How do you know which one feels "real" love and which one feels "fake" love?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 4:56 PM joshua221 has not replied

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