Rep. Virgil Goode, R-Va. says a Muslum should not use Qur'an during swearing in

Thank you.I personally think that is exactly what the Republican Party relies on these days, FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. That and the ignorance of the party base that doesn't see him palming the pea.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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I personally think that is exactly what the Republican Party relies on these days, FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. That and the ignorance of the party base that doesn't see him palming the pea.

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The other thing they rely heavily upon is what passes for domestic investigative journalism ignoring such shenanigans.And I also think that the party base isn't all that ignorant. I think that many of them know exactly what's going on but will never criticize or stop supporting one of their own because their job is to "be part of the team".There was a poll that came out a week or two after the November elections that showed that among Republicans, the support for the Iraq war had plummeted compared to a few weeks before that.It think what happened among the general Republican population was exactly what Rush Limbaugh said happened to him, which was, in effect, that he was relieved to finally not have to "carry water" for the undeserving boneheads in Washington anymore, now that they shortly to be gone.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

So, this pandering pissant is demanding that everyone be required to use a bible when swearing an oath to support the Constitution. Pity he's never apparently taken the time to actually read the document in question.Article VI states in its entirety: Emphasis mine.Nuff said.Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Actually, he is careful with his wording. He does not say that everyone must use the Bible for swearing in. Here is an excerpt from his letter: Notice he describes what HE uses, (the Bible) and that HE does not subscribe to using the Koran. Goode has been through the swearing in ceremony and is fully aware that in the private ceremony, elected officials can use whatever they want. He is not advocating that the Koran be excluded from those ceremonies, he just doesn't like having Muslims in congress.

If someone wants to swear in using the Qur'an, the Bible, Bill Clinton's autobiography, or nothing at all, that should be their prerogative.Personally I don't see what the big stink is about in either case. If the Muslim wants to swear in using the Qur'an, let him. If Goode wants to argue his point, let him.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Good point. Its just a dog and pony show. Even Jesus told us not to swear at all, but let our yes mean, yes, and our no mean, no. Simple enough. I mean, yes, there is some purpose to it. When you declare the oath, you are telling the world that you will fulfill your obligations in a professional manner and that going against it can indict you later on. Other than that, its just a show.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I almost agree, nj.I wonder, though, a little bit about the tone of "the Muslim"...Though I agree that Goode has the right to speak his mind, his comments about immigration are patently dishonest, since they are irrelevant, and his remarks about how past swearing-in ceremonies have been conducted are patently dishonest because they lead folks to believe that Goode is planning something unprecedented and radical.To the extent that his xenophobia confirms the strongest doubts about America's intentions among the world's Muslims, he has betrayed not just the ideals but also the best interests of his own nation.The reasonable middle ground is not the mid-point between right and wrong: Goode is wrong. He is pandering to the worst of human impulses, the hatred and fear of difference.No one has the right to stop "the Muslim" from taking his private oath as he pleases; no one has the right to stop Goode from speaking his mind. But everyone has the right to label Goode's un-American bigotry for what it is, and his constituents have the right to exact a price in the voting booth. I hope they do.

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No one prevented Goode from speaking his piece or even elaborating on it.What is happening is that others are simply pointing out Goode's dishonesty.What this is about is that Goode simply commits a sin of omission by only telling a half truth. He says that Ellison will be sworn in using a Qur'an. He neglects to say that is only during the unofficial private ceremony and that during the official ceremony, Ellison, just like Goode and every other Representative, will be sworn in simply by raising their right hand.He then commits a sin of commission by bring in immigration. Since Rep Ellison's family have been US citizens since at least the 1700's, immigration is not an issue and is unrelated to anything involving Rep. Ellison.He goes a step further and says that he will not uphold the very Constitution he swears to uphold.That should be grounds for impeachment. There is no doubt that Rep. Goode has shown he will not uphold the Constitution of the United States and that he should NOT be allowed to take office.As pointed out back in Message 18 by subbie, Article VI of the Constitution says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." When Rep. Goode said and later expanded to say ... he is advocating a religious test for holding office.Rep. Goode should be barred from taking office. By his very words he has shown that he will not uphold his oath of office and so is not worthy of the position.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Wonder til your hearts content. I wonder if you would wonder had it been a Christian and I said, "The Christian." I only said the Muslim because I don't remember his name. Bringing up immigration in this instance is completely irrelevant. And citing how ceremonies have usually been conducted is pointless. I would feel like I was doing a disservice to everyone by obligating them to place an oath on something they don't believe in. Lets think about that for a moment. The whole point of placing your hand over the Bible was to convict you to take your oath seriously. If someone does not take the Bible seriously, then what purpose does it serve? Obviously this would be vice versa for non-Muslims asked to place their hand over a tome they don't feel convicted about. Most Americans are stuck between a rock and a hard place for two central reasons. First, we are taught that we are the great melting pot where Lady Justice says, "Give me your tired, give me your poor huddled masses yearning to be free." There was a time when that act of kindness was met with respect and gratitude. In today's time, there has been a bastardization of that philosophy because its no longer a virtue to be esteemed. Now its looked upon as a birth right to be trodden, abused, and disrespected. And the Lady who stands sentinel in New York harbor grows more and more weary with cynicism everyday. She wants to do the right thing but sure wished that those huddled masses would show an ounce of respect for her borders. I agree that he is operating on possibly all of those notions and that its not only a stupid move politically, but its just distasteful as a human being. I agree that he probably has allowed hatred to fester in his heart, and he may have a fear of anything different; perhaps he grew up with such a Good 'Ole Boy mentality. But if he is anything like your average American, his fear is that his country is going to hell in a handbasket. He might be looking across the pond and watching how Europe's Politically Correct mentality does not coincide with radical Islam who entrenches itself more every day. Maybe he's just a stupid bigot or maybe he doesn't really want to live in Virginiastan. I can't say for sure. All I can say is that his move is politically unintelligent and socially taboo. It looks like if Goode could have his way he'd seal up the United States and force the nation to become more of an isolationist nation than North Korea. Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

You bet I'd wonder. I have defended even fundies on this board (and elsewhere), at some expense. And on the day Christians in the U.S. are a persecuted people, I'll stand with them.As for the rest of your reply: it would've been shorter to say, "You're right."

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It is also irrelevant on another level. Ole Virgil says we need to keep Muslims out of the country to keep Muslims from getting elected. But I guarandamntee you that the district that Ellison represents is not mostly Muslim. He didn't win that seat because a bunch of Muslims voted for him. The fifth district probably has the highest percentage of minorites of any Minnesota district, but it is nonetheless a white and Christian majority. It may well also have the highest percentage Jewish population of any Minnesota district.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Everybody is persecuted in the U.S. That's what makes this country so great. We persecute our people equally. Well, at least the comedians do. Then: You're right, on both counts. You're right that it would have been shorter and that no one should be forced to place their hand on any document our book if they don't feel convicted to do so.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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and he may have a fear of anything different; perhaps he grew up with such a Good 'Ole Boy mentality.

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He might be looking across the pond and watching how Europe's Politically Correct mentality does not coincide with radical Islam who entrenches itself more every day.

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So, the sexist, racist, often violent southern "Good Ol' Boy" system is fundamentally different from radical Islam how, exactly?And what do you mean by Europe being politically correct? France probably has the most Muslims due to it's proximity to and history in Morocco and North Africa, and they do not allow the wearing of headscarves in it's schools.

The last chapter (hopefully) in this story: Whose Quran?Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Yeah. We were talking about that in chat earlier.I was surprised that folk did not know that TJ had a copy of the Qu'ran.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion