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Author Topic:   The Illusion of Free Will
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 137 of 359 (651564)
02-08-2012 10:38 AM


The Quantum Brain
I should say that there have been some studies done on the quantum mechanical effects in the brain. On the biological side, the "typical" time scale for a process in the brain is around 1 millisecond. In concrete terms, the electric signals in the brain only contain information down to the millisecond level. Any detail in the signal on smaller scales has no meaning to the rest of the brain. (I'm sure there are others here much more well-versed in these things than me)
However the brain is a nightmare when it comes to trying to create quantum mechanical superposition. Superposition is the common microscopic effect where an object has a probability of possessing several different values of a quantity, rather than a 100% probability of possessing one value. For example, a regular spinning top is either spinning left or right, not 40% chance of spinning left and 60% chance of spinning right. Such states are the basis of quantum mechanics, however the brain is not very conducive to these states.
First of all, it's a very warm place in absolute terms (310 Kelvin). Secondly there is constant collisions between the neural material and ions such as Cl-, the ions themselves having thermal fluctuations due to the heat. Collisions with these ions external to the cell will count as a measurement that collapses the wavefunctions of the neurons to single definite values. Secondly there are water molecule collisions, as well as interactions with distant molecules.
All together these mean that the average wavefunction in the brain collapses within:
0.00000000000000000001 seconds / 10^(-20) seconds*
compared with
0.001 seconds, which is the lowest meaningful timescale for the information processing in the brain.
*This is not guess work, the original paper is:
Tegmark, M. (2000). Importance of quantum decoherence in brain processes. Physical Review E 61, 4194—4206.
Available for free here: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907009
A more readable account by A. Litt et al for a talk at the university of Waterloo:
http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Articles/quantum.pdf
Decoherence is basically the process where quantum superpositions die off.

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 Message 138 by Perdition, posted 02-08-2012 12:23 PM Son Goku has seen this message but not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 359 (652681)
02-15-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by xongsmith
02-12-2012 3:05 PM


While I have no argument with these numbers, I think we should not forget to include the element of Chaos Theory leading up to the .001 second information processing. There would appear to be, at an extremely unlikely chance, a minimum of some 10^17 micro-brain wavefunction collapses leading up to the brain processing the "event" - in quotes here because this "event" appears to be a complex collusion of gazillions of collapses that may be, perhaps, slightly more accurately termed a "meaningful subdecision". This seems like a perfect opportunity for Chaos Theory to come in, pound it's steroidized chest, bellow loudly and reek havoc without resistance. Intractable mathematically complete conclusions based on starting conditions determined by quantum dynamics? No - this to me creates indeterminancy in spades. Think of a pachinko game with a ping pong ball falling through 10^17 layers of nails. But there are Attractors in the form of world view feedback rewards.
If I'm reading you correctly, you're stating that the brain might have effects due to chaos theory. I would say this is definitely true, I'd be shocked if the brain had no chaos theory like effects considering it's such a complicated system. All I'm saying is that there is absolutely no way quantum effects can particpate, they occur at timescales far smaller than timescales of the dynamics of the brain and any chaos theoretic effects would work on those dynamics.

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 Message 197 by xongsmith, posted 02-12-2012 3:05 PM xongsmith has replied

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 Message 266 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2012 2:39 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 296 of 359 (652803)
02-16-2012 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by xongsmith
02-15-2012 2:39 PM


I disagree. Regardless of how accurately the State of a Brain at time T may be completely known (meaning all the environmental, genetic, emotional stuff - everything that could ever be measured forever with whatever equipment might come to bear on this), the State at time T + 1 Planck unit later can only be described in probabilities because of Quantum Dynamics. It will remarkably correspond to the classical prediction, based on these probabilities - but it won't be exact to every atom in the universe, or even every atom in your closet full of shirts. There are so many events that even a few will not follow the Maximum Likelihood. Chaos Theory demonstrates that even the smallest thing can make a difference. While Chaos Theory is deterministic, it is only deterministic on the conditions of the universe it finds itself in at that Planck moment. The next Planck moment later the conditions are ever so slightly different, or maybe astonishingly the same as, from the Maximum Likelihood prediction. Chaos then chews on the new stuff.
It doesn't really work like this. Quantum effects don't really feed into classical chaos in the way you're imagining because of an effect known as decoherence and the linearity of quantum mechanics. Quantum Dynamics is completely linear, so small changes in the initial state never cause large changes in the evolution. Quantum Mechanics suppresses classical chaos for this reason. So rather than feed on Quantum Mechanical fluctuations, chaos is driven away by them.
This is where decoherence comes in. In the brain, for example, the atomic systems are constantly interacting with other atomic systems. These interactions count as a measurement which kills off the quantum effects and this is what actually allows classical chaos to appear. The classical chaos will then act on the time scales of whatever the classical dynamics of the brain are. It isn't effected by the quantum fluctuations because any time it tries to "reach that far down" quantum linearity kills it.
Quantum fluctuations have no more of an effect on the evolution of a chaotic classical system than they do on a non-chaotic one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2012 2:39 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2012 12:57 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 359 (652983)
02-17-2012 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by xongsmith
02-16-2012 12:57 PM


Isn't the decoherence of a brain state's region just a way of setting the initial conditions for classical chaos to operate in that particular region? And wouldn't all these regions resume becoming entangled when they get the chance? A region could be very small
That's basically the answer, as you've said the region could be very small. If you do the calculations it turns out to be very small indeed, atomic scale. So the quantum effects don't really show up outside the atoms and molecules themselves. Which is basically no different to what goes on when you drop a stone. There are quadrillions of quantum entanglements inside a stone, but due to interaction with the environment they never grow larger than the individual atoms and molecules. So quantum mechanics is necessary for the chemistry of atoms in the stone but not for the evolution of the stone as an object itself. It's the same with the brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2012 12:57 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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