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Author Topic:   Conventionalism is Dead - Society does NOT determine what is moral.
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 113 (385718)
02-16-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
02-16-2007 8:19 PM


Why wouldn't it be just and correct?
To kill me for no reason. (Allowed because society condones it.)
It isn't just because humans each have a dignity that should not be violated. All humans are each unique and special, different. To violate the lives of any human is (in the most general sense) wrong.
Of course certain exceptions apply but we are not discussing this in terms of hypothetical examples but in terms of reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-16-2007 8:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 02-16-2007 10:52 PM joshua221 has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 17 of 113 (385720)
02-16-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:31 PM


All Other Societies
Prophyx writes:
They are not educated. They live in ignorance and sometimes expound it for their own benefit.
Are you educated beyond the level of 'other societies?'
Please feel free to tell us how educated you are and how you have managed to 'escape ignorance' relative to others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:31 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 11:00 PM anglagard has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 113 (385721)
02-16-2007 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by anglagard
02-16-2007 10:29 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
Since, according to you, all people are born with the ability to know what is right, then you, as a subset of all people, should be able to tell us what is right and what is wrong.
This isn't what the thread is about, if one is educated and understands morality, then any hypothetical example could be worked out. We aren't dealing with examples of morality but with morality itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:29 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:52 PM joshua221 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 113 (385722)
02-16-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:42 PM


You still have not answered the question.
To violate the lives of any human is (in the most general sense) wrong.
Just another unsupported assertion. Why is it wrong?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:57 PM jar has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 20 of 113 (385723)
02-16-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:44 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
prophyx writes:
This isn't what the thread is about, if one is educated and understands morality, then any hypothetical example could be worked out. We aren't dealing with examples of morality but with morality itself.
If you can't define what you are discussing by providing examples, then you are talking about nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:44 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:55 PM anglagard has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 113 (385725)
02-16-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
02-16-2007 10:40 PM


You are an inmate in a concentration camp. A sadistic guard is about to hang your son who tried to escape and wants you to pull the chair from underneath him. He says that if you don't he will not only kill your son but some other innocent inmate as well. You don't have any doubt that he means what he says. What should you do?
I can see that you ripped it straight off of the internet, but that does not diminish the validity of this "moral dilemma".
A dilemma such as this forces you to put a "value" on human life. Something that is extremely crude and lowly.
I guess I am supposed to write that 2 humans dead is not as bad a 1 human dead although the first to die is related to you.
Immanuel Kant "Perfect Duty".
I choose to do nothing.
(Thanks Chris)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 02-16-2007 10:40 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by kuresu, posted 02-16-2007 11:02 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 32 by sidelined, posted 02-16-2007 11:09 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 58 by Doddy, posted 02-17-2007 4:52 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 113 (385726)
02-16-2007 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by anglagard
02-16-2007 10:52 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
We aren't dealing with examples of morality but with morality itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:52 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:59 PM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 113 (385727)
02-16-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
02-16-2007 10:52 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question.
Re-read my post, I believe I said something about humans each having a special dignity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 02-16-2007 10:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 02-16-2007 11:00 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 24 of 113 (385728)
02-16-2007 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:55 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
Define morality. If you can't, then there is no topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:55 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 11:02 PM anglagard has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 113 (385729)
02-16-2007 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:57 PM


Re: You still have not answered the question.
Re-read my post, I believe I said something about humans each having a special dignity.
Another special pleading and unsupported assertion.
Do you have any real reasons for your position?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:57 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Trump won, posted 02-16-2007 11:11 PM jar has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 113 (385730)
02-16-2007 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by anglagard
02-16-2007 10:42 PM


Re: All Other Societies
Are you educated beyond the level of 'other societies?'
Please feel free to tell us how educated you are and how you have managed to 'escape ignorance' relative to others.
I attempt to understand morality through reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:42 PM anglagard has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 27 of 113 (385731)
02-16-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by joshua221
02-16-2007 10:54 PM


I choose to do nothing
in reference to:
You are an inmate in a concentration camp. A sadistic guard is about to hang your son who tried to escape and wants you to pull the chair from underneath him. He says that if you don't he will not only kill your son but some other innocent inmate as well. You don't have any doubt that he means what he says. What should you do
this contradicts:
To violate the lives of any human is (in the most general sense) wrong.
from his message 16.
how do you live with yourself?
it's not okay to violate human life but it is?
hypocrite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:54 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 11:05 PM kuresu has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 113 (385732)
02-16-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by anglagard
02-16-2007 10:59 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
Define morality. If you can't, then there is no topic.
I attempt to understand morality through reason.
I am not GOD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 10:59 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by kuresu, posted 02-16-2007 11:07 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 35 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2007 11:17 PM joshua221 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 113 (385733)
02-16-2007 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by kuresu
02-16-2007 11:02 PM


how do you live with yourself?
it's not okay to violate human life but it is?
hypocrite.
How did I say it was?
I chose to do nothing.
People get so emotional, so flustered, so irritated, they can't stand to hear it. They seek comfort. They don't want this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by kuresu, posted 02-16-2007 11:02 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by kuresu, posted 02-16-2007 11:09 PM joshua221 has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 30 of 113 (385734)
02-16-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by joshua221
02-16-2007 11:02 PM


Re: Please Elaborate
do you believe morality to be god-given?
if so, why bother understanding morality through reason? you don't have a say in what is moral if it's god-give. As you yourself claim, you're not god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 11:02 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 11:25 PM kuresu has not replied

  
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