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Author Topic:   SOPA/PIPA and 'Intellectual Property'
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 286 of 303 (652414)
02-13-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Huntard
02-13-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Yes we are, the entire population already has free media easily available. Must I list the top 100 most popular torrents on pirate bay as an example?
Simply not true. There is a subset of the population - mostly teenage and young adult - that is fluent in torrents and places like Pirate Bay and are also clued up enough to know how to burn DVDs or have the gear to stream to different devices. The vast majority of everyone else does not inhabit that world.
It would take a decade or more of good, user friendly, living room technology, an industry adjusted to new business models and a population normalised to legal copying and distribution before you can have a clue what the actual effecst of abolishing copyright would look like.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Huntard, posted 02-13-2012 4:43 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2012 5:09 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 289 by Huntard, posted 02-13-2012 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 290 by hooah212002, posted 02-13-2012 5:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 287 of 303 (652417)
02-13-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by hooah212002
02-13-2012 4:50 PM


Re: Another interesting example
hooah212002 writes:
If you took the time to poke around, you'd notice quickly that a good percentage of habitual pirates would gladly pay for content that was in a consumer friendly format.
Indeed, as I have said already in Message 248:
Huntard writes:
Like I told Catholic Scientist, if I could download a digital HD copy of a movie as easily as I can now torrent it, and the price would be reasonable, I'd stop downloading it for free immediately. If say, something like Netflix came along, where I had to pay 20 Euros per month, and I could download and watch any movie I like at any time I like in HD, I'd say goodbye to torrents or usenet in a heartbeat. And funnily enough, most people I know also feel this way.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 288 of 303 (652418)
02-13-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Tangle
02-13-2012 5:02 PM


Re: Another interesting example
The vast majority of everyone else does not inhabit that world.
No, that's not accurate. The vast majority of "everyone else" inhabits China, where US copyrights are not enforced, and as a result you can purchase pirated movies on any streetcorner for pennies. It's estimated that the number of people pirating Hollywood movies in China is larger than the entire population of the United States. Piracy proceeds in China outearn Hollywood's legitimate profits by three to one.
So, in fact, you're absolutely wrong - we already live in a world where far, far more people see Hollywood movies via illegal, copyright-violating means than they do through legitimate distribution channels, yet Hollywood posts enormous profits every year.
That's what we've been saying this whole time, Tangle, why haven't you been paying attention?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 289 of 303 (652420)
02-13-2012 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Tangle
02-13-2012 5:02 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Tangle writes:
Simply not true. There is a subset of the population - mostly teenage and young adult - that is fluent in torrents and places like Pirate Bay and are also clued up enough to know how to burn DVDs or have the gear to stream to different devices. The vast majority of everyone else does not inhabit that world.
Sure they do, since those teenagers are their children/friends. And what's this about burning DVD's? Why on Earth would anyone do that? Just use digital copies.
It would take a decade or more of good, user friendly, living room technology, an industry adjusted to new business models and a population normalised to legal copying and distribution before you can have a clue what the actual effecst of abolishing copyright would look like.
The technology is here, it's just that the people are to lazy to learn it. And even then, asking one of those teenagers to set it up for you will solve that problem. It's a days work, if you take your sweet time for the set up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 290 of 303 (652422)
02-13-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Tangle
02-13-2012 5:02 PM


Re: Another interesting example
It would take a decade or more of good, user friendly, living room technology, an industry adjusted to new business models and a population normalised to legal copying and distribution before you can have a clue what the actual effecst of abolishing copyright would look like.
Cordcutting, as it were, is a booming market even via already legal means. There is a vast demand, for example, for Amazon to start a strictly streaming service where you don't necessarily have to also sign up for Prime. Boxee, Roku, HTPC's, WD Live TV, Apple TV....ALL are hot as hell. Why? Because a huge number of people do not want to continue paying outlandish cable bills for shit they don't want but ARE willing to pay for services they do on demand. The technology is there and is currently a mesh between legal and not.

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 291 of 303 (652424)
02-13-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by crashfrog
02-13-2012 5:09 PM


Re: Another interesting example
I bet there's whole populations of aliens on far and distant worlds fiedishly distributing episodes of Frazier without paying too. If however, the USA was the same as you claim China and I claim Betelgeuse is, Hollywood would still have no revenue.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2012 5:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2012 5:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 292 of 303 (652426)
02-13-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Tangle
02-13-2012 5:20 PM


Re: Another interesting example
If however, the USA was the same as you claim China and I claim Betelgeuse is, Hollywood would still have no revenue.
Why? Most of Hollywood's profits come from the Asian markets. Hollywood could never again release a movie to US audiences and still come out ahead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:37 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 293 of 303 (652429)
02-13-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by crashfrog
02-13-2012 5:26 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Because many people are honest or lazy of course. Are you saying that the Asians that pay Lethal weapon 4, do so in gratitude to the Hollywood capitalists?
In a world where no one had to pay for any media and that media was a easy to get as terrestial TV, we would all be like your Chinese pirates; just blameless.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2012 5:26 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 02-13-2012 5:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 294 of 303 (652438)
02-13-2012 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Tangle
02-13-2012 5:37 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Are you saying that the Asians that pay Lethal weapon 4, do so in gratitude to the Hollywood capitalists?
What the fuck? No, of course I'm not saying that.
But I am saying that artists can support themselves in a world without effective copyright protection the same way they do in this world, which is without effective copyright protection: from the voluntary patronage of their audiences. Punishing audiences for getting content through "legitimate" channels does nothing to protect revenues or works, and only puts our own culture beyond reach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2012 5:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 295 of 303 (652534)
02-14-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Huntard
02-13-2012 5:00 PM


Re: Another interesting example
No, sorry, don't fancy another MMO. However, make it a single player RPG and I might be tempted. What's the budget you're aiming for?
Single player RPG might be possible for the idea I have, but I really think it lends itself better the a multi-player platform.
As for a budget, I'm not sure. I'd need to hire a team of programmers (I'm not one myself), probably a couple more people to work with me on hashing out storylines and designs. It would need test space, so servers, electricity, rent on an office...we'd probably need a lot of money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Huntard, posted 02-13-2012 5:00 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Huntard, posted 02-14-2012 3:40 PM Perdition has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 296 of 303 (652563)
02-14-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Perdition
02-14-2012 12:29 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Perdition writes:
Single player RPG might be possible for the idea I have, but I really think it lends itself better the a multi-player platform.
Then I'm sorry, but I won't be investing in your project. Good luck with finding other people to fund it. Though, might I suggest a bit more solid of a proposal, like Tim Schafer did on the website I linked to earlier (you know, what is the amount you're aiming for, what you will do with any excess money etc.).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Perdition, posted 02-14-2012 12:29 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 297 of 303 (652564)
02-14-2012 3:47 PM


These interesting things just keep popping up...
Well well, a study done by the university of Minnesota (amongst others) suggests that the advent of piracy hasn't cost the entertainment industry in America a single dime. That's right, not a single cent was lost due to piracy from the early 2000's on, looking at domestic income for the entertainment industry.
Abstract:
quote:
Hollywood films are generally released first in the United States and then later abroad, with some variation in lags across films and countries. With the growth in movie piracy since the appearance of BitTorrent in 2003, films have become available through illegal piracy immediately after release in the US, while they are not available for legal viewing abroad until their foreign premieres in each country. We make use of this variation in international release lags to ask whether longer lags — which facilitate more local pre-release piracy — depress theatrical box office receipts, particularly after the widespread adoption of BitTorrent. We find that longer release windows are associated with decreased box office returns, even after controlling for film and country fixed effects. This relationship is much stronger in contexts where piracy is more prevalent: after BitTorrent’s adoption and in heavily-pirated genres. Our findings indicate that, as a lower bound, international box office returns in our sample were at least 7% lower than they would have been in the absence of pre-release piracy. By contrast, we do not see evidence of elevated sales displacement in US box office revenue following the adoption of BitTorrent, and we suggest that delayed legal availability of the content abroad may drive the losses to piracy.
So, there might be a loss worldwide, but this has more to do with the fact that fucking Hollywood doesn't release films everywhere at the same time, than that it does with piracy. Gee, haven't I been saying this all along, that people want to pay to see movies in cinemas, no matter if they can get the film for free online.
Complete study found here.

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2012 4:28 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 298 of 303 (652570)
02-14-2012 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Huntard
02-14-2012 3:40 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Then I'm sorry, but I won't be investing in your project. Good luck with finding other people to fund it.
Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that is the response I'll get from just about everyone.
Though, might I suggest a bit more solid of a proposal, like Tim Schafer did on the website I linked to earlier (you know, what is the amount you're aiming for, what you will do with any excess money etc.).
I can certainly say what I would do with excess money, but as for trying to aim at a dollar amount, I have no idea where to even start to find that. See, Tim Schafer has done this before, he knows what it takes and can ball park a number based on his experiences.
Most people who don't have this experience are basically going to be saying, "I'm aiming for as much as I can get." Since I'm not a coder, I don't even know how extensive the coding will need to be to bring my idea to fruition, which means I don't know how many programmers I'll need, nor how many computers/servers I'll need.
That's the issue I'm trying to illustrate, in order to create the type of proposal that would get a lot of people (or a few wealthy people) to invest in the the idea, I would need to already have experience doing this sort of thing - experience I can't get without funding, and around and around we go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Huntard, posted 02-14-2012 3:40 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by crashfrog, posted 02-14-2012 5:18 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 299 of 303 (652572)
02-14-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Huntard
02-14-2012 3:47 PM


Re: These interesting things just keep popping up...
Huntard writes:
Gee, haven't I been saying this all along, that people want to pay to see movies in cinemas, no matter if they can get the film for free online.
As have we all. It's weird how no matter how often the same thing is said, it will still be ignored or misinterpreted by those who don't wish to hear.
Message 65
And we're talking only of box office. The industry makes money on the whole lifecycle of theatrical release (box office), first showing broadcast, satellite and cable, DVD, terestrial TV and repeats. Most of that follow-on revenue would disappear if there was no copyright protection.
Not only that, without copyright protection, the cinemas have no need to pay Holywood for the film that they show. As has also been explained several times.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Huntard, posted 02-14-2012 3:47 PM Huntard has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 300 of 303 (652577)
02-14-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Perdition
02-14-2012 4:18 PM


Re: Another interesting example
Ok, so you have a game idea that you can't realize because you're exactly the wrong person to realize it - no programming or games development experience, no notion of the scope, etc. If this game does get made, it'll be by somebody other than you doing all the work.
So I guess I'm puzzled. Where do you see society's interest in having laws that would allow you to come in after somebody else had done all the work, and then take a portion, perhaps even a majority, of the profits? Don't you think that kind of copyright-based extortion actually reduces the incentive for someone to invest the time and effort to create video games?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Perdition, posted 02-14-2012 4:18 PM Perdition has not replied

  
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