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Author Topic:   Another anti-evolution bill, Missouri 2012
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 283 (648136)
01-13-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Panda
01-13-2012 10:14 AM


One question I would have when considering passing this amendment: Why only teach the controversy of evolution?
If us flat-earthers don't get our fair share of the curriculum, then there will be trouble
Really? You would have to consider that question?
Yes, that question, and many others, should be asked by legislators who oppose the bill in an attempt to get evidence on record for invalidating the bill in court.
There is a real possibility that this bill will be enacted, and that Missouri school boards will mandate the use of a textbook not markedly different in content from Of People and Pandas (with "cdesign" edits) as a supplementary text in all of its 9th grade biology classes.
Alternatively, the teacher might well be able to make off the cuff remarks like, "I ain't a child of no monkey" to introduce an ID discussion in rebuttal to the normal text book material on the theory of evolution.
And perhaps we should not count on the Supreme Court to put a stop to this. Among the more conservative Justices, only J. Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy have any kind of track record in establishment cases. Kennedy's track record on this clause is nunaced, Scalia's position on similar issues is reliably anti-scientific and Thomas (the anti-Marshall) has reliably agreed with Scalia in such cases. Alito and Brown are completely untested. I believe that only Ginsburg and Breyer among the less conservative Justices have a track record. Sotomayor and Kagan's positions are also untested.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Panda, posted 01-13-2012 10:14 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Panda, posted 01-13-2012 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 283 (648147)
01-13-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
01-13-2012 4:42 AM


I'd like this thread to discuss why the Dover trial hasn't put a stop to this nonsense
I've got some ideas.
1. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is a district court decision. It was not appealed. Accordingly, the binding legal scope of the decision is limited to the parties involved. If the case were to come before a different judge in the same district, the new judge would NOT be bound by the decision. In fact the same judge could decide differently the second time around. I believe that the ID folks made a strategic decision not to appeal a case where the facts were not on their side.
2. The Dover trial was fought and lost on two fronts. The first front dealt with the purpose of the legislation, and the principles created a pretty impressive trail of evidence that the purpose was religious. Secondly, ID itself was found to be a religious teaching.
In this case, the legislation makes no mention of ID, and the legislation contains words purporting to establish that the law is non-religious. Time for another spin.
3. Creationists cannot give up. Being a creationist means that you have a God given responsibility to evangelize and proselytize.
I think we could sight far better legal precedent than the Dover case. If adding warning labels to biology text books regarding evolution is unconstitutional, then having a teacher serve that function is probably not kosher either. But there are some problems with using Selman v. Cobb County School District as precedent as well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 283 (648148)
01-13-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Panda
01-13-2012 12:07 PM


But I expect that since you live in America, these things are a far more immediate and visceral threat to you - so perhaps my humour was misplaced.
Not misplaced. I completely missed the joke. And now that I don't have any children who have yet to complete the ninth grade, it really isn't of any immediate threat to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 283 (648157)
01-13-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
01-13-2012 12:47 PM


I wonder how long I would keep my job?
In some school systems, an organized group of a few parents can put enormous pressure on a school principal. I've seen my wife organize parents to do that very thing (not related to this subject area).
If your teaching did aggressively target creationism, such that it at least arguably infringed the Free Exercise Clause of the first amendment, you might well lose your job.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taq, posted 01-13-2012 12:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 01-13-2012 1:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 283 (648160)
01-13-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
01-13-2012 1:27 PM


Then I would only attack ID which is stated to be non-religious. It would be pretty funny if a pro-ID group sued on the grounds that attacking ID infringed on free exersize
It would be an inconsistent position, but there might be some room to do so if you weren't pretty careful about your attack. The truth of the matter is that ID is a thin veil over creationism.
Another thing to consider is that IDers wouldn't have to sue you to get rid of you. You might be in the position of suing the district in order to get your job back.
The real obstacle to passing these kinds of bills is that implementing them has the potential to expose the school systems to very expensive legislation. Even if a biology teacher loses a lawsuit, the teacher is not going to have to pay damages or the school district's legal fees, while the school system faces the risk of having to do both.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 01-13-2012 1:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 01-13-2012 3:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 283 (648414)
01-15-2012 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Trixie
01-15-2012 2:29 PM


Re: A wee update
These bills seem to pop up in regularly in some state legislatures. Typically they don't get much of anywhere. Usually the principle backers cannot avoid dragging religion back into the discussion as some resistance pops up.
When the discussion is kept on secular terms, it is apparent that ID is to biology as astrology is to cosmology. ID simply hasn't been presented in a way that it has generated controversy. A few nutty professors, disagreeing with evolution is not a scientific controversy. Cold fusion is further along than ID in this respect.
That's usually the point when the squawking about monkeys starts, and the cover is publicly blown. Eventually, the lawyers are forced to warn proponents that defending a single challenge can result in millions of dollars of liability and other millions of dollars in legal fees.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 38 of 283 (648578)
01-16-2012 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Pressie
01-16-2012 2:36 AM


marc9000 writes:
....It could have happened by a poor performance by ID proponents,....
That's one of the reasons.
Most of the "poor performance" by the proponents involved things that happened outside of the court room. My impression gained from reading the transcript is that Behe did his best to avoid saying anything that would damage the defendant's case, but that ultimately, he had to own up to stuff he had said and done that were not helpful to the case, and his foot dragging looked a lot like lying.
Additionally, principle witnesses for the defense were caught in egregious lies which damaged their credibility, but the fact of the matter is that the lies themselves were about quite condemning information regarding the purpose of the ID curriculum.
Dawn Bertot has in the past suggested that he could have saved the trial by offering his own logic on why ID was science. Ignoring for now the fact that DB's logic is not rational, it is pretty clear to me that DB could not have overcome the problems with the damning story behind the text book, Behe's dissembling, the out of court statements by the defendant's admitting that their purpose for changing the science curriculum was not based in science, Behe's admission regarding astrology, the lack of scientific review of the material in the text book.
There's more stuff, and for anyone interested on either side of the debate, I highly recommend the NOVA video Intelligent Design on Trial.
Also, because of the Dover defendants' refusal to appeal their case, even if another court in a different jurisdiction were to receive a different result based on a different set of facts, that the new result would be utterly unhelpful to the Dover folks. They are stuck with their injunction.
Edited by NoNukes, : Trail/Trial single/plural

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Pressie, posted 01-16-2012 2:36 AM Pressie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 283 (648763)
01-18-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by marc9000
01-17-2012 7:55 PM


Re: That didn't take long!
New paths of exploration that that go completely unexplored by atheists.
The paths you described really aren't explored in any substantial way by anyone. Writing a few popular books and a summary paper or two is not exploration.
One reason that ID isn't considered science is that essentially no scientists are following up on any of ID's implications. When is the Discovery Institute going to get around to doing just that? If they were able to do so, they'd be able to address at least that part of the issue.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by marc9000, posted 01-17-2012 7:55 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 283 (648951)
01-19-2012 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric
01-19-2012 11:48 AM


Re: No real contradiction
Evidence can exist for positions that are absolutely wrong. For example , I am thinking of a number between 1 and one million. The fact the number is even and divisible by three is some evidence that the number is 12. But of course the number I'm thinking of is actually 491,946.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2012 11:48 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 166 of 283 (649656)
01-24-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Granny Magda
01-24-2012 5:37 PM


Re: Rick Brattin is Obsurd
In my opinion, bills HB 1227 have little to no shot at being found constitutional by a federal appeals court. But there might well be a federal district court judges here and there who might give creationists a win at trial. There are also at least a couple of Supreme Court Justices who don't believe Thomas Jefferson meant what he wrote when he drafted the Establishment Clause despite the clear evidence that he did intend a strongly enforced separation of Church and State.
It is the stealth bills that must be vigilantly scrutinized and opposed, because on their face they can appear to state a reasonable position. As long the bills make no references to ID or a designer but instead are worded as academic freedom and encouraging critical thinking, they might appear to pass muster.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Granny Magda, posted 01-24-2012 5:37 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 167 of 283 (649657)
01-24-2012 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by New Cat's Eye
01-24-2012 4:29 PM


State rights, some of the time
AE writes:
It is Missouri, and it is their business not ours.
Catholic Scientist writes:
What does that have to do with this?
Some people find the Supremacy Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment an anathema and an inexcuable intrusion on states right. That is, up until the point when their own state wants to put limits on where or how they can tote their guns. Then it is Haleluiah 14th Amendment!!! Thank you activist judge!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2012 4:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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