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Author Topic:   The Annual War over Christmas -- by christians
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 63 (645101)
12-23-2011 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
12-23-2011 12:37 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
The Roman Emperor Constantine professed Christianity in the year 312? or so after he won a battle, before which he had an unusual revelation. I don't remember the specifics. He became the first pontifix maximus (pope), declaring that there should be only one religion. Thus he became ruler of both the only lawful church and the state/empire.
You've got things a bit confused here. Constantine wasn't the first Pontifex Maximus, and he didn't acquire this position due to his conversion. Pontifex Maximus was the traditional post of the leader of religious life in Rome. He was the one with the job of arranging religious festivals. It was originally a temporary position but, like many of Rome's significant public offices, it was one of the titles taken by Augustus at the creation of the Empire that was inherited by subsequent emperors. You're right that it was in his role as Pontifex Maximus that Constantine Christianised the festivals of Rome. The Emperor Gratian gave up the title of Pontifex a few decades later, recognising that religious things were the province of the Church, and the Bishops of Rome took the title for themselves.

This message is a reply to:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 47 of 63 (645102)
12-23-2011 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Straggler
12-22-2011 7:05 PM


Re: Happy Holidays celebrates ALL beliefs and traditions.
Straggler writes:
Fair enough. I'm not at all Christian but I am happy to celebrate Christmas in a generic cultural sense. And have no problem naming it as such.
That's pretty much my take on Christmas as well. I don't subscribe to the tenets of Christianity but grew up celebrating Christmas and enjoy the family get togethers and holiday traditions that come along with it.
My objections to the renaming of the holiday season doesn't stem from taking Jesus out of Christmas by any means. It's more based on the cultural traditions that I grew up with and am used to. That and as I said earlier. Fuck being PC!
ABE: Tenants, tenants, tenants! Bring it on good Dr.
Edited by rueh, : No reason given.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 48 of 63 (645103)
12-23-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by rueh
12-23-2011 7:58 AM


Re: Happy Holidays celebrates ALL beliefs and traditions.
That's pretty much my take on Christmas as well. I don't subscribe to the tenants of Christianity ...
The next time anyone says "tenants" when they mean "tenets" I shall burn them at the stake.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 49 of 63 (645132)
12-23-2011 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
12-23-2011 12:37 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
Hi Buzsaw, and a happy season's greetings to you.
So as to keep the peace in the empire he mingled some paganism into Christianity. For example, in 325, at the Council of Nicaea he persuaded those present that Easter should be celebrated by all as a holiday (holy day). This would suffice to placate both Christians and pagans since spring time was significant to some of the pagan gods as noted in the link.
The link also explains why the sabbath was changed from the 7th day to Sunday, i.e. Sun-day, significant to sun worshipers. I've cited this to say that the precedence was early established in the RCC to adopt some paganism into Christianity.
And this should be well known by now.
The cut and decorated tree is referenced in the OT ancient times by the prophet, Jeremiah in chapter 10. It applied to pagan worship by pagans in the nations.
And thus calling one a "holiday tree" should be of no concern to Christians in general. They can still celebrate Christmas in their way and in accordance with their personal traditions.
My family has celebrated Christmas as a tradition. All of my relatives and my boys still do. I don't judge others on this count, as there are some aspects of it that can be applicable to Biblical doctrines.
My wife and I have not had a tree for quite a few years now. For ourselves, we see it as something that God is not please with, as per the Jeremiah text.
However, when we visit the boys or anyone else, we never bring it up or make an issue of it, unless it is something that is mutually discussed. We do exchange gifts and celebrate it, relating it to the birth of Jesus, though tis not really the season of his birth.
And I fully support you in following your traditions and beliefs.
To summarize, holiday/holy day more accurately applies to both pagans and Christians, in that it can be regarded by either as a holy day.
And to anyone from all the other faiths and beliefs and traditions.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 63 (645170)
12-23-2011 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by caffeine
12-23-2011 7:55 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
caffien writes:
Constantine wasn't the first Pontifex Maximus, and he didn't acquire this position due to his conversion. Pontifex Maximus was the traditional post of the leader of religious life in Rome. He was the one with the job of arranging religious festivals. It was originally a temporary position but, like many of Rome's significant public offices, it was one of the titles taken by Augustus at the creation of the Empire that was inherited by subsequent emperors. You're right that it was in his role as Pontifex Maximus that Constantine Christianized the festivals of Rome. The Emperor Gratian gave up the title of Pontifex a few decades later, recognising that religious things were the province of the Church, and the Bishops of Rome took the title for themselves.
He summoned together the bishops of the empire to Rome, presiding over the First Council of Nicea. This was the first conclave of Rome which centralized the bishopric, over which Constantine presided.
This council established the creeds and doctrines which were to be the offical positon if the ecumenical bishric. Easter was to be established as a holiday/holy day. Two dissenters of some creeds imposed were banished.
Pontifix Maximus as per the Wiki encyclopedia was the chief of the college of bishops or the chief of the bishops. Some websites depict him as the first pope. Others do not. Nevertheless he served as the first centralized chief of the bishops of the empire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 51 of 63 (645200)
12-24-2011 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
12-23-2011 11:14 PM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
The Council of Nicaea was not held in Rome but rather in "Nicaea" which is in Turkey.
Constantine called the Bishops together but did not preside over any of the meetings or even have a vote.
Easter was already a holiday, the issue since it is a floating holiday was to agree on the method to calculate when Easter fell.
The Council of Nicaea did not centralize the Bishopric.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 63 (645242)
12-24-2011 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-24-2011 9:04 AM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
jar writes:
The Council of Nicaea was not held in Rome but rather in "Nicaea" which is in Turkey.
Constantine called the Bishops together but did not preside over any of the meetings or even have a vote.
Easter was already a holiday, the issue since it is a floating holiday was to agree on the method to calculate when Easter fell.
The Council of Nicaea did not centralize the Bishopric.
Thanks, Jar. I stand corrected on all, except the last. As I understand, the First Council of Nicaea was the first of any event, calling all of the bishops from the nations of the Roman Empire to one assembly, essentially setting a precedent for the establishment of one empirical universal church which the RCC began to be.
Constantine, a pre-Christian pagan, despised the Jews and rejected their 7th day sabbath. He was a sun worshiper. Sun-day was their holy day. This and Easter, etc are examples of how he corrupted the bishoprics with paganism. Thus, to this day, Christianity, to lesser and greater degrees, has been corrupted, particularly the RCC.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-24-2011 9:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 53 of 63 (645244)
12-24-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
12-24-2011 4:25 PM


Re: Scrooge Weighs In
I'm sorry but that is just more nonsense and misrepresentation.
Christianity had a history going back hundreds of years before Constantine of taking existing holy days, traditions and holy sites of other religions and incorporating them into Christianity. Even Paul used that tactic.
The Council of Nicaea did not centralize the Bishopric and in fact recognized that both the Bishop of Jerusalem and Alexandria would hold position of priority.
Constantine had nothing to do with Christianity adopting Sunday as their Sabbath; that was done by Christians to help differentiate themselves as a separate religion and not just another Jewish sect long before Constantine.
Easter is simply the adoption of Passover from the Jews and came long before Constantine.
Christmas is simply the adoption of the Winter Solstice.
Pentecost was simply Christianity adopting Shavout.
Have you ever read the Bible or studied anything about Christian history?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 54 of 63 (645256)
12-24-2011 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
12-20-2011 6:36 PM


Re: Troll Thread
Thus, without any such reference being made available, I do not see any reasons for Christians to get upset in anyway over calling a decorated tree a "holiday tree" -- do you?
Why, Yes, I do.. Jeremiah 10:1-5
This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 55 of 63 (645257)
12-24-2011 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
12-21-2011 5:24 PM


Re: Blasphemy!
What is solstice/christmas/whatever without bloody snow??
Warm!

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 56 of 63 (645260)
12-24-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
12-24-2011 4:25 PM


Sunday
Constantine, a pre-Christian pagan, despised the Jews and rejected their 7th day sabbath. He was a sun worshiper. Sun-day was their holy day. This and Easter, etc are examples of how he corrupted the bishoprics with paganism. Thus, to this day, Christianity, to lesser and greater degrees, has been corrupted, particularly the RCC.
Easter, as has been pointed out, already existed. All the Council did was to agree on a way of reckoning the date.
And Sunday had already been adopted as a day of worship by the early Christians, and obviously this had nothing to do with paganism, but was because it was the "Lord's Day", the day of the resurrection; observation of the Sabbath being thought unnecessary or even heretical, since it was part of the Jewish ceremonial law, and was therefore considered unnecessary to salvation, like circumcision and keeping kosher.
So in St. Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians (early second century, long before Constantine got involved) he writes:
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God.
Similarly Justin Martyr, writing in the mid second century in his First Apology describes Sunday worship:
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen [...] Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.
Whether or not the early Christians were right in adopting Sunday worship is a question I leave up to you, but it is clear that they had done so before Constantine could have had anything to do with it, what with him being born in 272.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 57 of 63 (645272)
12-24-2011 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
12-21-2011 5:24 PM


Re: Blasphemy!
What is solstice/christmas/whatever without bloody snow??????
That would be Christmas down under.

Christianity claims the moral high ground it its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 58 of 63 (646344)
01-04-2012 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
12-21-2011 2:37 PM


everybody knows Jesus was born on 12/25 in the year zero!!!
I only agree that you are such a try hard that when I make an obvious joke on protestants, you want to engage me as if I am making a real statement.
If you are really so "Zen" then why try so hard to attack Christians?
BUSTED!!!!
The Main holidays exist today because of the Catholics who kept the traditions up, and because some of the reformers decided some of the holidays were important to keep up after the 16th century. Half of the holidays (origin) we have (in the USA) are non-religious: New Year's Eve, Thanksgiving, and the 4th of July, Memorial Day, and Labor Day. The Others are religious in nature Christmas, Easter, St. Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Mardi Gras, Good Friday.
Sure if you want to talk about the real origin of the holidays it goes back to some illiterate pagans, that the Romans conquered, and merged their holidays with but i don't see the point there
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : no skills

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 59 of 63 (646351)
01-04-2012 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 4:04 PM


Re: Why December 25th?
so common that I learned this in grade school.
It was Roman Tradition, not Christian tradition to do so.
It is just something the try-hard haters like to say, a broken record that never stops spinning the same tired lines over and over again.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 60 of 63 (646355)
01-04-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Artemis Entreri
01-04-2012 11:06 AM


Re: Why December 25th?
It is just something the try-hard haters like to say,
There's some videos in the OP that I didn't watch... but apparently there's some neo-cons who were upset that the Christmas Tree was being re-labeled as a "Holiday Tree". The point was that decorating trees was a pagan custom to begin with, so its absurd to be upset that the word "christams" is being removed from a description of it.
It like being mad that someone covered your version of a cover-song...

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