Hyperbole in the Bible

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Rather YOU should support your claim that the flood story is hyperbolic.

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Noah was 600 years old.
All mankind's thoughts were only evil continually.

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Noah was 600 years old.

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On what basis do you conclude that that is hyperbole ? Given the number of differing implausible ages in the pre-Flood patriarchs is it not likely that this is a mythic/legendary element ?

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All mankind's thoughts were only evil continually.

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That seems to be a simplified and not entirely accurate paraphrase: (Genesis 6:5, NASB)So, it seems that you can only come up with two incidental details - and one of them requires the very consideration of genre that you want to rule out as irrelevant (and with that consideration it is likely that your assessment is wrong !).I think that my point is made.

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On what basis do you conclude that that is hyperbole ? Given the number of differing implausible ages in the pre-Flood patriarchs is it not likely that this is a mythic/legendary element ?

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Per Friedman's Documentary Hypothesis, the Redactor put in the exaggerated ages. If you feel that it is not hyperbole, then make your case.

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So, it seems that you can only come up with two incidental details - and one of them requires the very consideration of genre that you want to rule out as irrelevant (and with that consideration it is likely that your assessment is wrong !).

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I think that my point is made.

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I have no idea what your point is concerning hyperbole. You haven't made any argument or presented any position concerning hyperbole in the Bible. I'm not going to comb the story for you. Absolutes tend to be exaggerations. If you disagree, then present your argument. If you disagree that a verse presented is hyperbole, then present your argument.

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Per Friedman's Documentary Hypothesis, the Redactor put in the exaggerated ages. If you feel that it is not hyperbole, then make your case.

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Remember that it is you who insists that this is hyperbole, so it is for you to make the case. If all you have is a "suggestion" that the great ages were assigned to "fill up" the periods that the authors knew to have passed - without any evidence offered - I don't see much of a case. Why can it not be, for instance, a "Golden Age" view, where the distant past was far better than the present day, a view reflected in the stories told, and people simply lived longer ?

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I have no idea what your point is concerning hyperbole

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My point is simple. Simply assuming that the Bible is basically an accurate historical text and that anything that seems obviously exaggerated is hyperbole is a crude approach, which seems driven by apologetic considerations rather than any serious attempt to understand the text.

You seem to be creating an absolute position for me that I didn't present. I didn't insist the ages were hyperbole. I presented what I would consider to be hyperbole. People do not live to be 600 years old. It is an exaggeration to fill in a gap. If the redactor added the ages, they weren't part of the older story and looking at the legends of the same story, the ages didn't continue. He exaggerated the ages for a reason or affect. Why woulldn't that be a hyperbole.

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My point is simple. Simply assuming that the Bible is basically an accurate historical text and that anything that seems obviously exaggerated is hyperbole is a crude approach, which seems driven by apologetic considerations rather than any serious attempt to understand the text.

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That's why I'm confused. I haven't assumed any of the stories are basically accurate historical texts.Hyperbole is commonly used in fiction, drama, poetry, and common speech.

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You seem to be creating an absolute position for me that I didn't present.

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On the contrary, in the OP you claimed: The fact that you are refusing to support this assertion doesn't mean that you never made it.

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I didn't insist the ages were hyperbole.

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I didn't see any indication of uncertainty when you presented it as an example of hyperbole. The more so since you chose it as (presumably) one of the two clearest examples of hyperbole in the entire story!

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People do not live to be 600 years old.

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In reality, no. But this is why we must consider genre. Yet, you presented it as a definite example of hyperbole that could be identified without considering genre (Message 16)

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It is an exaggeration to fill in a gap. If the redactor added the ages, they weren't part of the older story and looking at the legends of the same story, the ages didn't continue. He exaggerated the ages for a reason or affect. Why woulldn't that be a hyperbole.

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I've already presented one alternative. But filling a gap is not the same as hyperbole, and even that is only a suggestion. We can say that the ages are not a standard figure used as an exaggeration (e.g. "He's, like, a hundred years old!") or even schematic ages like the 40 year periods in Moses' life, so simple hyperbole is not the explanation. We can see that we are dealing with mythical or legendary figures so that we cannot trust the constraints of reality to apply. We can see that the age is not unique to Noah and applies to many patriarchs before and after the Flood - admittedly diminishing after the Flood, but still continuing. The "filling in gaps" explanation has more merit than simply assuming hyperbole, but it still seems to be a strange thing to do.

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That's why I'm confused. I haven't assumed any of the stories are basically accurate historical texts.

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Yet you assume that Noah's age is hyperbole simply because in reality Noah could not be that old. You described the extent of the Flood as a definite example of hyperbole without giving any better reason. You don't want to consider the possibility that the stories are myth or legend or even fiction.

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Hyperbole is commonly used in fiction, drama, poetry, and common speech.

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Which is not a position I am arguing against. However we cannot use the fact that many genres use hyperbole to jump to the conclusion that we cannot consider genre when identifying hyperbole. Noahs's age is a clear example of this.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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I've already presented one alternative. But filling a gap is not the same as hyperbole, and even that is only a suggestion. We can say that the ages are not a standard figure used as an exaggeration (e.g. "He's, like, a hundred years old!") or even schematic ages like the 40 year periods in Moses' life, so simple hyperbole is not the explanation. We can see that we are dealing with mythical or legendary figures so that we cannot trust the constraints of reality to apply. We can see that the age is not unique to Noah and applies to many patriarchs before and after the Flood - admittedly diminishing after the Flood, but still continuing. The "filling in gaps" explanation has more merit than simply assuming hyperbole, but it still seems to be a strange thing to do.

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Was that so difficult? You present why you disagree and I can decide whether to rethink my position. I can agree that even though the ages are exaggerated for whatever purpose, they aren't written in a distinctive hyperbolic fashion. So they probably aren't truly hyperbole. I'm not using the ages to explain anything. I'm looking at possible hyperbole in the Bible.

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You don't want to consider the possibility that the stories are myth or legend or even fiction.

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Again you are incorrect. I don't want this thread to be about proving (notice the word proving) that the stories are fact or fiction. Do you understand yet? IMO, it doesn't matter when it comes to hyperbole. If you disagree that a given verse is hyperbole, then present your counter argument based on whatever reason you have. If it is because of genre, then present your reasoning.If we read the Bible stories just like any other writing, can we see hyperbole?

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Was that so difficult? You present why you disagree and I can decide whether to rethink my position

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The difficulty is in getting you to recognise that this is not a one-sided duty that applies to me and not to you. The fact that your attempts to support one of your new assertions was hopelessly bad and easily refuted does not in any way excuse you from the need to provide support for your original assertion. Which you have been evading throughout this discussion.

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Again you are incorrect. I don't want this thread to be about proving (notice the word proving) that the stories are fact or fiction. Do you understand yet?

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I understand that your objection was wrong. I never said anything about proving the story to be fact or fiction at all, all I asked you to do was to support the assumptions underlying your assessment of the text as hyperbolic in the OP. Which you refused to do, and still refuse to do. There is no real doubt that the story as we have it now is largely fiction anyway - a combination of two differing stories, both derived from older sources, which are more different still. So it seems that the objection is thoroughly bogus - and served to shut down a discussion you obviously want to avoid.

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IMO, it doesn't matter when it comes to hyperbole.

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It's already been proven that my actual concern for genre DOES matter, so your opinion is either wrong or completely irrelevant.

I really have no clue what you want, so I'm going to stop trying.
We are obviously looking at this issue differently.

Hi PDLet me try and explain what I think Paul means. Here is a quote from your OP.

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2 Kings 23:25 - Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.

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You used this as an example of hyperbole. It is hyperbole if Josiah really was an actual king. (I'm not disputing that by the way.) If however Josiah never existed then it isn't hyperbole but fiction.In looking at the flood strory, it would seem to me that that the Biblical account in order to be hyperbole would mean that it had to be based on an actual flood of some kind, even if it was just a local flood. If there was no flood at all then the story isn't an example of hyperbole but simply fiction or allegory.Cheers

Hyperbole is used in drama, fiction, poetry, and common speech. I don't see that fiction negates the use of hyperbole.So these are non-Biblical examples. So I'm still clueless as to why hyperbole supposedly can't be in a fictional story if that is the point.

Your example may miss the mark. We might still recognize the verse as exaggeration if within the story we can see that Josiah was not quite as committed to the Lord as the verse indicates.On the other hand, with Noah's age, I don't see any indication in the story that Noah failed to live to 600. Unless an appropriate Noah existed and had a lengthy lifespan that was significantly less than 600 years, then I don't see any basis for calling his age hyperbole.

I like this game, I'd add another from fiction which actually explicitly acknowledges its hyperbolic nature (with a bit of paradox thrown in) ... TTFN,WK

Definition

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hyperbole/hˈpərbəl/
Noun: Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

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Synonyms: exaggeration - hyperbola - overstatement

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I don't understand how you can exaggerate fiction. In all of your examples you have taken a truth and exaggerated them.For example when you say your backpack weighs a ton you are taken a non-fictional situation, which is that the back pack is heavy and exaggerating it.Fiction is just what it is; it can't be exaggerated or minimized.

That was the point that I was trying to make although obviously not that effectively. Exactly