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Author Topic:   Anyone ever heard of Rebecca Watson?
Stile
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 61 of 86 (678397)
11-07-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Huntard
11-07-2012 2:14 PM


Re: My Take
Huntard writes:
Wait...What? Since when is the fact that the receiving party is offended by something the sending party said any indication of whether or not the sending party is wrong.
According to my personal system of morality.
And... I also think it's better than yours
Huntard writes:
Are you wrong when Christians get offended if you tell them you do not believe in god? Really?
Yes.
If I go and tell Christians that I do not believe in god, and they get offended... then what I did was wrong.
Basically, all I've done is gone out and made some people feel bad.
How is that a "good thing"? Or even a "neutral thing"?
Don't you agree that I should have just stayed home instead? At least then no one would have gotten hurt at all.
Perhaps you're thinking of a more specific situation? Feel free to clarify your example and we can discuss (but perhaps it would be better to take the conversation over to here: Morality without god )
Women can stand up for themselves, can't they? They're strong and independant, aren't they? They have the ability to utter the words: "Sorry, no, not interested, please leave me alone", don't they?
Yes, yes, yes.
How does any of that make it "a good thing" if Rebecca hurt elevator-guy?
I agree that it can make it justified or maybe the least-bad-thing she could do in the situation. But the fact remains that she said something that hurt elevator-guy. That fact makes that specific thing "bad." I even explained at the bottom of the post that I fully agree that Rebecca was "less-bad" than elevator-guy (does he have a name?).
I fully admit that my system of morality takes a bit of a paradigm-shift. But it also has some very large advantages like providing a clear and objective look at the situation so that everyone can agree on what was good and what was bad... the subjective factor for this classification is completely removed. That is, if we agree that "bad things" are those that people do not want to have happen to them, and "good things" are those that people do want to happen to them... it is then objective that elevator guy's proposition was a bad thing. It's also objective that Rebecca's response was bad.
However, the fact that elevator guy could have avoided the situation (he started it) and Rebecca could not avoid the situation (she didn't start it) mean's the responsibility is more on elevator guy's shoulders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Huntard, posted 11-07-2012 2:14 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 11-07-2012 2:52 PM Stile has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 62 of 86 (678401)
11-07-2012 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Stile
11-07-2012 2:39 PM


Re: My Take
Stile writes:
According to my personal system of morality.
And... I also think it's better than yours
I'm offended by that, and so you are wrong, and your morality isn't better than mine.
Yes.
If I go and tell Christians that I do not believe in god, and they get offended... then what I did was wrong.
Basically, all I've done is gone out and made some people feel bad.
How is that a "good thing"? Or even a "neutral thing"?
Don't you agree that I should have just stayed home instead? At least then no one would have gotten hurt at all.
Perhaps you're thinking of a more specific situation? Feel free to clarify your example and we can discuss (but perhaps it would be better to take the conversation over to here: Morality without god )
Wait... In a conversation, you are wrong to tell your conversation partner that you do not belive in god, if this offends them? I'm sorry, could you walk me through your logic here? We could go over to the other thread, if you think it more aproptiate.
Yes, yes, yes.
How does any of that make it "a good thing" if Rebecca hurt elevator-guy?
It doesn't. which was my point. She overreacted, in my oppinion. But, again, I think people overreact all the time.
I agree that it can make it justified or maybe the least-bad-thing she could do in the situation. But the fact remains that she said something that hurt elevator-guy. That fact makes that specific thing "bad." I even explained at the bottom of the post that I fully agree that Rebecca was "less-bad" than elevator-guy (does he have a name?).
I don't. I think he was less bad. And what matters here is intent. As far as I can tell, elevator dude didn't mean to cause her discomfort, nor scare her. Where as she said some pretty nasty things about him.
I fully admit that my system of morality takes a bit of a paradigm-shift. But it also has some very large advantages like providing a clear and objective look at the situation so that everyone can agree on what was good and what was bad... the subjective factor for this classification is completely removed. That is, if we agree that "bad things" are those that people do not want to have happen to them, and "good things" are those that people do want to happen to them... it is then objective that elevator guy's proposition was a bad thing. It's also objective that Rebecca's response was bad.
The problem however is that perhaps elevator guy thought that his proposition was a good thing. Since we can't read minds, we can never know what other people truly think and therefore can never be sure of what we say to them will "offend" them. Are we then bad or wrong for saying somthing that "offends" other people? Did we have the intent to hurt them? I say, that if we did not, then no, it was not a bad or wrong thing to do.
However, the fact that elevator guy could have avoided the situation (he started it) and Rebecca could not avoid the situation (she didn't start it) mean's the responsibility is more on elevator guy's shoulders.
Right. So, according to you, avoiding every and all situation is prudent? Because, well, you'll never know when you'll be wrong or bad by saying something someone might possibly take offence to, and well, you really wouldn't want that, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 11-07-2012 2:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Stile, posted 11-07-2012 3:46 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 63 of 86 (678407)
11-07-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Huntard
11-07-2012 2:52 PM


Re: My Take
Huntard writes:
We could go over to the other thread, if you think it more appropriate.
I do!
I've replied to your message here: Message 114 in thread Morality without god

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 11-07-2012 2:52 PM Huntard has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 64 of 86 (678420)
11-07-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Huntard
11-07-2012 2:14 PM


Re: My Take
Stile writes:
Rebecca obviously took offense to the statement; therefore, he was wrong. Maybe it was a mistake, an accident... maybe he was trying to get a rise... it doesn't matter, it's wrong simply because it wasn't appreciated by Rebecca.
Huntard writes:
Wait...What? Since when is the fact that the receiving party is offended by something the sending party said any indication of whether or not the sending party is wrong. Are you wrong when Christians get offended if you tell them you do not believe in god? Really?
Well, if we take what the guy said at face value, he wanted to spend some time in a more intimate setting with Rebecca. The way he communicated that desire put her ill-at-ease. Under these circumstances, he's not going to get what he wants. Therefore, he used the wrong approach.
If Christians get offended at me when I tell them something about their religion under circumstances where I'm trying to engage them in a conversation, I'm more than likely not going to achieve my goal and thus am approaching them in the wrong way.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 86 (678421)
11-07-2012 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Rahvin
11-07-2012 2:09 PM


What evidence would you find convincing as support for the claim that radical feminists exist?
I'm sure they exist. What's the evidence that they're anything but an insignificant minority, that their views represent a real coalition and not just another expression of the random statement-generator that exists at the bottom of the Internet? Remember Bluegenes talked about "radical feminists" who were walking around with T-shirts. That there were so many of them at one time you might reasonably expect to meet a crowd of them in the street. What possible evidence is there for that view?
Personally...if a person tells me that "men are obsessed with death and therefore necrophilia supports male power, and PIV intercourse is akin to rape," I'll think that person has rather extreme anti-male views.
Ok, but who told you that? Not any of the people you quoted.
My argument is that the proper response to the KKK is not to form a homicidal black supremacist movement.
I think the proper response to the KKK can include both the peaceful objection to their violence and the violent elimination by vigilantes of their most violent leaders, if people choose to do that. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The appropriate response to violent oppression isn't unilateral disarmament.
When someone says that PIV intercourse is "a harmful cultural practice which harms women and benefits men," that person is going beyond simply stating that sexual activity is more burdensome for women.
Why? Do not the downsides of heterosexual intercourse accrue disproportionately to women? It's a matter of scientific fact that a woman is more likely to contract an STD from her male partner than the reverse. Only one of those two can be pregnant, or will be expected to use or provide birth control.
Is heterosexual intercourse not a "cultural practice"?
I'm sorry but it's insufficient for you to identify feminists saying things that are objectively true and call them "radical." And again, the proposition made was that there are feminists who believe that all sex is rape. Are you prepared to identify one, or not?
You did, in fact, make that very assertion
No. I made this assertion:
quote:
Are you sure that there was even one such t-shirt worn by an "extremist feminist"? My impression has always been that the "all men are pigs" wing of feminism is largely the invention of its detractors[.]
not this one, as you claimed:
quote:
As I have now backed up my assertion with evidence, I would call upon you to do the same with refard to your assertion that such "radical feminists" who equate heterosexual intercourse with rape must in fact be misogynous males themselves using deception to create a target for their misogyny.
You're simply lying about what assertions have been made. I've never proposed that there are misogynists out there posing as radical feminists, so I won't defend such an absurdity.
Because it would appear to me that you specifically claimed, repeatedly, that there is no such thing as a real radical feminist, that such views are straw men created by their detractors.
I did make that claim, and it's been supported by the evidence I've provided (the Snopes article, primarily.) That's a very different claim than the notion that misogynists are actually posing as feminists all as part of a clever plan to confuse us. You're simply lying about which claim I've actually made.
Note that none of this has anything to do with Rebecca Watson, as neither I nor anyone else in this thread that I've noticed has suggested that she is a radical feminist, or that the views of radical feminists have any bearing on whether Ms. Watson should be "dismissed."
Funny, then, that we're talking about it. How did this come up in a thread about Rebecca Watson? Remember, I'm not the one who brought up the imaginary T-shirts. The only explanation is the attempt at guilt-by-association that occurred in Message 38. Or did you think Tangle's message was just a complete non-sequitur?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 66 of 86 (678425)
11-07-2012 8:23 PM


My 2
I'm actually kind of sick of the perpetually offended. If Rebecca's perception is that she is often beset by misbehaving men, to an extent far out of proportion to the actual number of misbehaving men, then she might want to consider looking within herself.
But the perpetually offended don't tend to do that.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1069 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 67 of 86 (678434)
11-07-2012 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Percy
11-07-2012 8:23 PM


Re: My 2
Seek and you will find.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 11-07-2012 8:23 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 68 of 86 (678451)
11-08-2012 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by roxrkool
11-07-2012 2:14 AM


Re: sexual objectification and misogyny
I simply put two and two together.
So she didn't actually say what you said she said.
Over the past several years, I've been groped, grabbed, touched in other nonconsensual ways, told I can expect to be raped, told I'm a whore, a slut, a bitch, a prude, a dyke, a cunt, a twat, told I should watch my back at conferences, told I'm too ugly to be raped, told I don't have a say in my own treatment because I've posed for sexy photos, told I should get a better headshot because that one doesn't convey how sexy I am in person, told I deserve to be raped - by skeptics and atheists. All by skeptics and atheists. Constantly.
Ok, but that's not the statement I asked about. What I asked you is where she said, as you said she said:
quote:
She added to this by stating that while attending these sorts of conventions, she was being constantly harassed by atheist men.
And on what basis do you question her above account? Frankly it doesn't sound unreasonable, why am I supposed to believe those things didn't happen? And if they did happen, why should she not say that they happened?
If it happened once at every skeptical conference she's been to - which, her being a prominent woman, I can believe - is it truly unfair to say that it happens "constantly"?
Eventually, odds are that I would meet up with an asshat at some point in my life.
I've met up with a ton of asshats already. Yet, again, none of them were women who thought it would be legitimate for them to make a sexual offer and then respond to its rejection by a campaign of harassment. Why do you suppose that is?
Of course it was wrong and of course he did it to scare me.
And comes here Rebecca Watson to say "you know, doing that isn't okay. It's not okay anywhere, and it's especially not okay in movement atheism, where the lack of religious or unsupported dogma is supposed to obviate unsupportable ideas like 'women are inferior.'"
What I don't agree with, again, is blaming all men because of one jerk.
I'm just not seeing where that's happening. Straw-feminism. But if guys aren't telling each other that it's not ok to do things like that to you - if, in fact, guys are telling each other that it's awesome to have done that to you, which I can verify to you is happening - isn't there some broader blame to go around? Feminists call it "rape culture." Should the blame for that be solely on the heads of rapists? Shouldn't there be some blame for the people who have had the opportunity to oppose rape culture, but decided it just wasn't that important? I think so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by roxrkool, posted 11-07-2012 2:14 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 86 (678453)
11-08-2012 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Percy
11-07-2012 8:23 PM


Re: My 2
I'm actually kind of sick of the perpetually offended.
I don't get any sense that Rebecca Watson is "perpetually offended", since to her the issue merited only a single comment and that was it. Don't you think it's been her perpetually-offended detractors who have flogged this issue over and over again who should consider "looking within themselves"?
If Rebecca's perception is that she is often beset by misbehaving men, to an extent far out of proportion to the actual number of misbehaving men, then she might want to consider looking within herself.
People are telling her that she should be raped to death, and that they're the ones to do it so she better look out. Frequently they tell her this and then drop some detail about her routine or travel plans, just to up the intimidation factor.
I don't think you have to be thin-skinned to take offense to that. And what's your basis for saying that Rebecca Watson is experiencing harassment well out of proportion to the "actual number of misbehaving men"? What is the actual number of misbehaving men, and how do you know?
Are you familiar with the case of Kathy Sierra? (For whatever reason, I mistakenly referred to her as "Sierra Bates" in an earlier post, but it's actually tech author and blogger Kathy Sierra that I meant to refer to.)
quote:
In March 2007, Sierra abruptly canceled her appearance at the O'Reilly ETech conference in San Diego due to threatening blog posts and emails, including death threats.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] One blog post included an image of Sierra next to a noose. She wrote: "I have cancelled all speaking engagements. I am afraid to leave my yard, I will never feel the same. I will never be the same."[2]
The harassment increased after the threats were reported in the news: a false account of her career was posted online, along with her address and Social Security number.[7]
The issue triggered public discussion on the concept of a bloggers' code of conduct. Some bloggers, including Robert Scoble, author of the technology blog Scobleizer, temporarily suspended their blogs in a show of support for Sierra.[2] One of the larger issues Scoble felt was highlighted by the incident was online hostility to women: "It's this culture of attacking women that has especially got to stop," Scoble said "[W]henever I post a video of a female technologist there invariably are snide remarks about body parts and other things that simply wouldn't happen if the interviewee were a man."[2]
Do you think that there was something "within herself" about Kathy Sierra that attracted such a massive outpouring of sexist abuse and threats, or do you think that maybe there's a problem with the men in technical and skeptical fields that they react to the presence of a prominent woman in this way?
How about the case of Dario Maestripieri, professor of Comparative Human Development at the University of Chicago:
quote:
On October 14, 2012 he lamented on his personal Facebook page on what he perceived as a lack of "beautiful women" at the Society for Neuroscience's annual conference in New Orleans, Louisiana. "There are thousands of people at the conference and an unusually high concentration of unattractive women," Maestripieri wrote. "The super model types are completely absent. What is going on? Are unattractive women particularly attracted to neuroscience? Are beautiful women particularly uninterested in the brain?" [11]
So, what happened there? Was it just the case that every single woman at the Society for Neuroscience annual conference had "something within herself" that attracted sexist judgement about her appearance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 11-07-2012 8:23 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 70 of 86 (678454)
11-08-2012 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by roxrkool
11-07-2012 9:51 PM


Re: My 2
Seek and you will find.
"Seek"? They came to her, if you'll recall. She didn't invite that guy into the elevator, and she didn't invite the torrent of abuse and threats that followed.
Is there something about this issue that causes you and Percy to just completely lose your shit? The things you two are saying just don't bear any resemblance to what actually happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by roxrkool, posted 11-07-2012 9:51 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by roxrkool, posted 11-08-2012 8:24 AM crashfrog has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1069 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(1)
Message 71 of 86 (678458)
11-08-2012 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by crashfrog
11-08-2012 7:31 AM


Re: My 2
"Seek"? They came to her, if you'll recall. She didn't invite that guy into the elevator, and she didn't invite the torrent of abuse and threats that followed.
That is not at all what I am referring to. If you're looking to be offended, if you're looking for misogyny, then you will certainly find it. Everywhere.
Is there something about this issue that causes you and Percy to just completely lose your shit? The things you two are saying just don't bear any resemblance to what actually happened.
Have we lost our shit? Not agreeing with you or others' points of view on this issue doesn't necessarily constitute lunacy. And besides, I'm completely open to the fact that I have misconstrued words and events. That's why I'm here making and reading comments on this topic.
Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 11-08-2012 7:31 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-08-2012 5:04 PM roxrkool has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 86 (678498)
11-08-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by roxrkool
11-08-2012 8:24 AM


Re: My 2
If you're looking to be offended, if you're looking for misogyny, then you will certainly find it. Everywhere.
Well, yes. You'll find it everywhere because it's everywhere.
The way you make it out, though, the problem is not that the misogyny is there, it's that people are noticing it. But as the examples of Rebecca Watson, Kathy Sierra, and Dario Maestripieri prove, you don't have to go looking for misogyny to find it everywhere. Very conveniently it'll bring itself to you, frequently in ways you can't simply ignore.
Isn't the actual problem, here, that misogyny is everywhere? Why don't you see it that way?
Not agreeing with you or others' points of view on this issue doesn't necessarily constitute lunacy.
No, but not agreeing with reality does. Claiming that Watson went looking for someone to proposition her in an elevator, or that Kathy Sierra invited people to leave sexualized threats on her blog and home phone, is just madness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by roxrkool, posted 11-08-2012 8:24 AM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by roxrkool, posted 11-09-2012 11:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1069 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(1)
Message 73 of 86 (678616)
11-09-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-08-2012 5:04 PM


Re: My 2
Isn't the actual problem, here, that misogyny is everywhere? Why don't you see it that way?
Why? So I can live my entire life living and playing the part of a victim? Fighting and hating people who I have to live and work with? That's not who I am and not who I want to be.
Obviously, I don't subscribe to all tenets of feminist theory -- I consider myself more of a traditional feminist. I fight for equal rights, reproductive rights, voting rights, equal pay, and so on. As such, I don't need everyone to like me in order to have those things, but what they will do and what I demand, in both my personal and professional life, is that they respect me and allow me my rights as a human being.
That does not mean I deny that hatred, denigration, or discrimination of women exists. It does. Or that I think women should just shut up and take what they get. I don't. I just refuse to be defined by those things. And I certainly do understand why other women and men have a problem with these things. That's their right. Just don't fucking tell me I haven't thought about things enough or am blinded by my patriarchal upbringing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-08-2012 5:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 11-09-2012 12:15 PM roxrkool has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1547 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 86 (678618)
11-09-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by roxrkool
11-09-2012 11:44 AM


Re: My 2
Why? So I can live my entire life living and playing the part of a victim?
No. Specifically so that you don't have to be victimized by misogyny. So that your rights as a human being can be respected.
As such, I don't need everyone to like me in order to have those things, but what they will do and what I demand, in both my personal and professional life, is that they respect me and allow me my rights as a human being.
Are the kind of misogynistic threats that Rebecca Watson and Kathy Sierra have received consistent, in your view, with an ethos of respect for them and their rights as human beings? If not, I still don't understand why you're not on their side about this.
I just refuse to be defined by those things.
I would hope nobody is defined by the threats they receive. I've not defined Watson, Sierra, or anybody else in that way. Watson is a skeptic blogger. Sierra is a tech writer (I have a couple of her books.) It's only their detractors, like yourself, who have attempted to define them as professional offense-takers.
Just don't fucking tell me I haven't thought about things enough or am blinded by my patriarchal upbringing.
I don't recall telling you either of those things. "Perpetually offended", much?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by roxrkool, posted 11-09-2012 11:44 AM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by roxrkool, posted 11-09-2012 6:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 75 of 86 (678647)
11-09-2012 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
11-07-2012 7:27 PM


Sorry - totally offline and give me the jeers for this but when I first saw Crashfrog's post containing the following:
It's a matter of scientific fact that a woman is more likely to contract an STD from her male partner than the reverse. Only one of those two can be pregnant...
I immediately (forgive me) exclaimed aloud in my mother's basement room equivalent:
Wow - getting pregnant is an STD!!!
Now I happen to think the ZPG people are correct, but this reaches into Jonathan Swift shorelines a tad.
...ok...back to your fascinating discussion......

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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