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Author Topic:   Studying the supernatural
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 136 of 207 (635560)
09-29-2011 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by GDR
09-29-2011 6:59 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
Omnivorous writes:
I simply see nothing in the world that requires or suggests a supernatural explanation, while I see a long history of supernatural claims debunked with natural explanations.
GDR writes:
How about the very existence of the Natural?
Nope.
That road leads to the super-supernatural, ad infinitum.
Don't go there.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 6:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 7:51 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 137 of 207 (635568)
09-29-2011 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Omnivorous
09-29-2011 7:20 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
Omnivorous writes:
That road leads to the super-supernatural, ad infinitum.
I know - turtles all the way down...
Actually it doesn't have to lead to ad infinitum, it could lead to infinity.
Brian Greene in his Book "The Fabric of the Cosmos" says that there must be something wrong with the data because when they bring together the math of relativity and the math of QM the answer keeps coming up as infinity. What if the math is right and infinity is the correct answer.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2011 7:20 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2011 8:01 PM GDR has replied
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 09-29-2011 8:28 PM GDR has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 138 of 207 (635569)
09-29-2011 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by GDR
09-29-2011 7:51 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
GDR writes:
Brian Greene in his Book "The Fabric of the Cosmos" says that there must be something wrong with the data because when they bring together the math of relativity and the math of QM the answer keeps coming up as infinity. What if the math is right and infinity is the correct answer.
Well, I can't speak to the math.
But I don't think anyone has managed to "bring together the math of relativity and the math of QM" just yet.
Aside from that, I'm good with infinity. It no more needs a supernatural explanation than finiteness does.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 7:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 8:31 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1665 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 139 of 207 (635573)
09-29-2011 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by GDR
09-29-2011 7:51 PM


Brian Green footnote
Hi GDR,
Brian Greene in his Book "The Fabric of the Cosmos" says that there must be something wrong with the data because when they bring together the math of relativity and the math of QM the answer keeps coming up as infinity. What if the math is right and infinity is the correct answer.
I'm reading his book "the Elegant Universe" where he is showing how string theory can unify QM and relativity without the problems.
Of course string theory then requires more dimensions ...
Enjoy.
Edited by Zen Deist, : bold ∞

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 7:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 8:38 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 140 of 207 (635575)
09-29-2011 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Omnivorous
09-29-2011 8:01 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
Omnivorous writes:
Aside from that, I'm good with infinity. It no more needs a supernatural explanation than finiteness does.
Agreed, but it does deal with the question of who created the creator.
AbE: Infinity isn't something that we encounter in the natural world except in mathematics. It seems to me that infinity is a supernatural concept.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2011 8:01 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2011 9:47 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 141 of 207 (635578)
09-29-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
09-29-2011 8:28 PM


Re: Brian Green footnote
Zen Deist writes:
I'm reading his book "the Elegant Universe" where he is showing how string theory can unify QM and relativity without the problems.
He wrote "The Fabric of the Cosmos" after "The Elegant Universe". I watched the DVD of "THe Elegant Universe" but didn't read the book.
The part of the book "The Fabric of the Cosmos" that I was referring to is under the heading "Does It Matter" on page 335. I'm currently reading "The Hidden Reality" which is his newest book.
AbE: OK, here is the quote from "The Fabric of the Cosmos".
quote:
In practice, the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum mechanics rears its head in a very specific way. If you use the combined equations of general relativity and quantum mechanics, they almost always yield one answer: infinity. And that's a problem. It's nonsense. Experimenters never measure an infinite amount of anything. Dials never spin around to infinity. Meters never reach infinity. Calculators never register infinity. Almost always, an infinite answer is meaningless. All it tells us is that the equations of general relativity and quantum mechanics, when merged go haywire.
Edited by GDR, : To add Greene quote.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 09-29-2011 8:28 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 142 of 207 (635582)
09-29-2011 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by GDR
09-29-2011 8:31 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
GDR writes:
Omnivorous writes:
Aside from that, I'm good with infinity. It no more needs a supernatural explanation than finiteness does.
Agreed, but it does deal with the question of who created the creator.
I don't see how.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by GDR, posted 09-29-2011 8:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 12:40 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 143 of 207 (635604)
09-30-2011 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Omnivorous
09-29-2011 9:47 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
Omnivorous writes:
I don't see how.
An infinite world would allow for an infinite prime mover, unlike our world which is subject to entropy. An infinite or eternal prime mover doesn't require a first cause.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2011 9:47 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2011 7:10 AM GDR has replied
 Message 150 by Rahvin, posted 09-30-2011 11:45 AM GDR has replied
 Message 156 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2011 6:01 AM GDR has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 144 of 207 (635620)
09-30-2011 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by GDR
09-30-2011 12:40 AM


Re: Newsweek Article
Sauce for the God is sauce for the Garden: If an infinite prime mover doesn't require a creator, then neither does an infinite world.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 12:40 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 10:04 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 145 of 207 (635647)
09-30-2011 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Omnivorous
09-30-2011 7:10 AM


Re: Newsweek Article
GDR writes:
An infinite world would allow for an infinite prime mover
Omnivorous writes:
If an infinite prime mover doesn't require a creator, then neither does an infinite world.
I quoted both so that you can see that in my original statement I said "allowed for". I did not say "required". It just allows us to do away with the turtles.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2011 7:10 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2011 10:26 AM GDR has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 146 of 207 (635655)
09-30-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
09-28-2011 2:52 PM


Harold Camping Predictions
If (for example) Harold Camping had got it right that would constitute pretty conclusive evidence of the supernatural wouldn't it?
Due to the nature of the predicted event it would be shortlived (or arguably eternal I guess) evidence. But it would be evidence wouldn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 09-28-2011 2:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by 1.61803, posted 09-30-2011 11:32 AM Straggler has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 147 of 207 (635656)
09-30-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by GDR
09-30-2011 10:04 AM


Re: Newsweek Article
I kinda like the turtles.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 10:04 AM GDR has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1764 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 148 of 207 (635661)
09-30-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by RAZD
09-29-2011 6:19 PM


Re: "people are strange ... " the doors
ZenDeist writes:
When you look at the fine print of the universe (QM level) you see constant shifting and rebuilding. Everything changes from micromoment to micromoment yet appears to stay the same.
Quantum foam. There is a story about how one day David Hume was going into a pub and saw a guy sweeping the steps. They got into a discussion about the chaps broom and how wonderful it was that it always did such a great job. The chap explained that he was always replacing the head of the broom and he loved his broom. To which Hume stated that it was not the same broom if he replaced the head. The man then went on to discuss how he also replaced the shaft of the broom the previous year. And yet it was his beloved broom just the same.
How unlike this mans broom is anything that exist? What is the same? There is nothing new under the sun we just recycle and reintergrate the materials. Some of the radio active isotopes from Hiroshima reside in us all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by RAZD, posted 09-29-2011 6:19 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1764 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 149 of 207 (635662)
09-30-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
09-30-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Harold Camping Predictions
How do you know that in some other parallel universe Harold Campings predictions were correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 09-30-2011 10:26 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 09-30-2011 1:06 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4069
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 150 of 207 (635663)
09-30-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by GDR
09-30-2011 12:40 AM


Re: Newsweek Article
An infinite world would allow for an infinite prime mover, unlike our world which is subject to entropy. An infinite or eternal prime mover doesn't require a first cause.
Why?
Be specific. In what way can a "prime mover" be "infinite?" What would an "infinite" person look like, if people could be "infinite?" Why is an "infinite prime mover" a solution to the problem of infinite regression?
I ask, GDR, because I don't think your usage of the term is actually an explanation. I think it's just a word that lets you feel like you've responded to the challenge of the regressing turtles, but I don't think it actually explains anything at all. If there were an "infinite prime mover," what predictions would you make (testable or otherwise) that would be different from a non-infinite "prime mover?" If we had perfect knowledge of the Universe and reality, how would our omniscient observations differ between an "infinite prime mover" and a non-infinite "prime mover," or a Universe that does not include a "prime mover" of any sort?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 12:40 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 09-30-2011 2:02 PM Rahvin has replied

  
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