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Author Topic:   Studying the supernatural
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 4 of 207 (634670)
09-23-2011 10:40 AM


How can we confirm the existence of that which defies study.
Science deals with objective truths. If something is inmaterial how can it be examined? If something is not composed of matter how can it be studied? Yes psycology and social sciences can study ideas and such, but I am speaking about ghost and spirits.
There has not been one single shred of physical evidence to suggest such things exist that has not been debunked as clap trap. Dr. Randi even has a standing one million dollar offer for anyone who can produce such evidence.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 10 of 207 (634683)
09-23-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
09-23-2011 10:52 AM


Strag writes:
If something is immaterial how can it be experienced at all? Have you heard of the mind body problem?
Yes..and have you heard of dreaming? You experience your dreams do you not? OKthen.
Strag writes:
If something cannot be experienced how can any concept of it be derived from anywhere but the internal workings of a creative brain?
I agree.
Strag writes:
Are these ghosts and spirits detectable? If so how? Can they be seen? Touched? Heard?
Yes, it seems there are those among us that are privy to experiencing the supernatural. Just watch the show Ghost Hunters. roflmao
Strag writes:
Science deals with detectable reality. Our investigations into detectable reality show us that humans will invoke "unknowable" beings and then start claiming to know various things about them.
Blink....did you just say "know" Blink...really...you did, didnt you you said the K word.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 13 of 207 (634687)
09-23-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
09-23-2011 11:47 AM


Staggler, I really do not know that I believe they are in fact detecting the supernatural. And neither do you for that matter.
However.....there are those who say big foot exist somewhere in the woods of North America. Is Big Foot supernatural?
There are those who say Aliens are making anal probes on human specimens. Are Aliens supernatural?
And of course those who say ghost exist, are ghost supernatural?
We defined a zillion times on this board what we all say is supernatural. We all agree that a the supernatural is that which exist outside of the laws of this natural universe. Which imo means it does not exist. If ghost exist they are natural imo. We just as of yet do not have a way of explaining them that coincides with what we know up to this point. Or its bull shit. Take your pick.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 18 of 207 (634709)
09-23-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
09-23-2011 1:01 PM


Re: natural vs un-natural ... vs a-natural? -- a proposal of terms
Hello Zen Deist,
Zen Deist writes:
So if god/s exist then they are natural rather than supernatural?
Isn't that kind of reverse god-of-the-gaps?
No, because God as I understand him to be described exist OUTSIDE and prevades the universe, in addition to being part of the universe. This would therefore make such a God supernatural.
In Catholic dogma, God is not only a intrinsic part of the universe but is also separate from it. The universe and all that exist derives it's existence or being from him/it.
Reverse "God of the Gaps" to say we cant explain the supernatural yet, but once more comes to light perhaps we can.
Like thunder was attributed to Thor and now has a scientific explanation. Yes, if some scientist tomorrow provided scientific evidence to explain ghost, I would no longer call them supernatural.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 97 of 207 (635099)
09-26-2011 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Straggler
09-26-2011 1:21 PM


Re: Scientifically Studying The Efficacy of Prayer
Straggler writes:
I think it means we can conclude that when studied scientifically prayer doesn't appear to work.
Your right, and neither does our current models of cosmology.
I wont be surprised if CERN discovers a substance called AETHER in the near future.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 100 of 207 (635152)
09-27-2011 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Straggler
09-27-2011 6:12 AM


Re: Scientifically Studying The Efficacy of Prayer
Straggler writes:
So we know something somewhere has to be a bit wrong in our scientific understanding of reality as a whole.
Roughly 95 percent of the stuff that makes up our universe is unexplained and inexplicable as of yet.
It seems we are living in a age of discovery. Just a week ago the speed limit of the universe it seems has been violated.
I bet Mr. Clarke is right:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 129 of 207 (635521)
09-29-2011 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by GDR
09-29-2011 1:33 PM


Re: Newsweek Article
GDR writes:
I don't know, QM is pretty strange.
Humanity is still sitting in Plato's cave poking at shadows.
It is confounding that as much as our scientist are discovering it is causing a cascade of other ever more perplexing questions. How did the universe inflate? did it? Dark Matter/energy, gravatons, Higgs,entanglement, on and on science strips the layers off reality to reveal a even more bizzare foundation. It is almost as if the very properties that make up our reality are elusive because there is no final orgin. No ultimate reality to grasp. like a fractal it is a ever replicating pattern of increasing perplexity. Werner Heisenberg I once read, after experiments confirmed what he called "the uncertainty principal." Walked around in the middle of the night muttering, "reality can not possibly be this strange."
What if reality ends up being a 1st person reality game for super intelligent beings. If this is the case how would we ever be able to know.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 148 of 207 (635661)
09-30-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by RAZD
09-29-2011 6:19 PM


Re: "people are strange ... " the doors
ZenDeist writes:
When you look at the fine print of the universe (QM level) you see constant shifting and rebuilding. Everything changes from micromoment to micromoment yet appears to stay the same.
Quantum foam. There is a story about how one day David Hume was going into a pub and saw a guy sweeping the steps. They got into a discussion about the chaps broom and how wonderful it was that it always did such a great job. The chap explained that he was always replacing the head of the broom and he loved his broom. To which Hume stated that it was not the same broom if he replaced the head. The man then went on to discuss how he also replaced the shaft of the broom the previous year. And yet it was his beloved broom just the same.
How unlike this mans broom is anything that exist? What is the same? There is nothing new under the sun we just recycle and reintergrate the materials. Some of the radio active isotopes from Hiroshima reside in us all.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 149 of 207 (635662)
09-30-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
09-30-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Harold Camping Predictions
How do you know that in some other parallel universe Harold Campings predictions were correct?

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 165 of 207 (636150)
10-04-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
09-30-2011 1:06 PM


Re: Harold Camping Predictions
Straggler writes:
But more to the point- If there were evidence that Harold Camping (or some other such equivalent) was correct (either in this universe or any other that we can gain evidence of) would that constitute evidence of the supernatural?
I am not sure. Of course statistically a prophet can be right just out of mere coincidence. ESP is regarded somewhat as supernatural. So if somehow it could be verified scientifically then yes Im sure you would agree that some supernatural claims can be scientifically examined. To date nothing has been shown to be supernatural as there are either naturalist explainations or out right debunked.
That does not imo mean SOMETHING outside of our abilities to verify is NOT taking place.

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 Message 167 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2011 11:31 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 169 of 207 (636163)
10-04-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2011 11:31 AM


Re: Harold Camping Predictions
Catholic Scientist writes:
... or remains a mystery.
I'm good with that.
Catholic Scientist writes:
sic*Esspecially in light of all that we don't know.
Indeed. Or believe.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1757 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 176 of 207 (636321)
10-05-2011 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Straggler
10-04-2011 11:29 AM


Re: Harold Camping Predictions
straggler writes:
If this had happened, indeed we would be in in the middle of the fire and brimstone part of it now,
If you only knew what hell awaits you in central Texas. The word drought and hell are daily utterances.

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