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Author Topic:   God and the size of the universe.
nlerd
Member (Idle past 3605 days)
Posts: 48
From: Minnesota
Joined: 03-03-2010


Message 31 of 53 (630687)
08-26-2011 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
08-26-2011 11:33 PM


Re: Inhabitants Of The Universe
Buzsaw writes:
Imo, it's arrogant of itty bitty humans, existing on this speck in our Solar System called Planet Earth, which is a tiny speck in our Milky Way Galaxy, being, itself a tiny speck amongst all of the existing billions of galaxies, etc, to think that theirs is the highest level of existence existing in this vast wonderful Universe.
I don't really get the arrogance thing but I could see how someone who believes that there is a higher power out there could see it.
Frankly I think its a bit arrogant for someone to believe that their personal "higher power" is the highest level of existence existing in this vast wonderful Universe.

You can't spell "believe" without "lie".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2011 11:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-12-2011 8:08 AM nlerd has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 32 of 53 (630695)
08-27-2011 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
08-26-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Another answer
Well, I didn't write it!
(There are critics everywhere!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 33 of 53 (630702)
08-27-2011 1:13 AM


The first recording relating to the size of the universe can be seen in this verse, which says the stars in the universe are unaccountable:
quote:
Genesis 15/5.
And He brought him forth abroad, and said: 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars, if thou be able to count them'; and He said unto him: 'So shall thy seed be.'
One must wonder what thoughts would have been aroused in Abraham's mind here. It would have surely confirmed his previous thoughts, and thereafter was the universe changing paradigm of creationism born.

  
DWIII
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


(1)
Message 34 of 53 (630703)
08-27-2011 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nlerd
08-26-2011 6:09 PM


quote:
So far as I understand God created all that exists for man (am I wrong in that assumption?), if that is the case then why is the universe so vast? Seems to be a huge waste of space seeing as how man's purpose (whatever that is) should be achievable on Earth.
There are two mutually exclusive (or nearly mutually exclusive) views on this subject which creationists hold, although rarely at the same time.
The first is that the universe as a whole was created specifically for biological life, and would cite a bunch of so-called "anthropic coincidences" in the laws of physics for support.
However, since Christians loathe to consider that this would imply that created life should be common everywhere in the universe, which would undermine the Christian view of Earth's and humanity's "uniquely exalted status", or that the potential discovery of extraterrestrial life would (to them) undermine their opposition to "what evolution teaches", namely that life could "evolve" on any other planet, the creationists would tell you some time later that biological life is restricted solely to this planet (again, citing a truckload of simultaneous physical conditions unique to Earth which they believe life requires) and is thus impossible anywhere else in the universe.
Either way, they would tell you that the vastness of the universe is primarily for the purpose of BibleGod showing off so as to make us puny humans go "ooooh! and aaaah!". Read the latter part of the Book of Job (particularly the "whirlwind speech") for a prime example of that.

DWIII

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 53 (630711)
08-27-2011 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nlerd
08-26-2011 6:09 PM


So far as I understand God created all that exists for man (am I wrong in that assumption?), if that is the case then why is the universe so vast? Seems to be a huge waste of space seeing as how man's purpose (whatever that is) should be achievable on Earth.
Well, this is the sort of question which would apply to a being who was limited in some way. If it cost extra time or trouble or money to make the universe that big, then it would be reasonable to ask why bother? It can only be a "waste of space" if space is something that the creator has to economize on. But if the creator is omnipotent, then I'm not sure that the question makes sense.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 53 (630728)
08-27-2011 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nlerd
08-26-2011 10:52 PM


Re: Wrong answers
It's not a problem with the Bible, it is a matter of education and learning.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 53 (630729)
08-27-2011 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by DWIII
08-27-2011 1:22 AM


again, try being accurate.
However, since Christians loathe to consider that this would imply that created life should be common everywhere in the universe, which would undermine the Christian view of Earth's and humanity's "uniquely exalted status", or that the potential discovery of extraterrestrial life would (to them) undermine their opposition to "what evolution teaches", namely that life could "evolve" on any other planet, the creationists would tell you some time later that biological life is restricted solely to this planet (again, citing a truckload of simultaneous physical conditions unique to Earth which they believe life requires) and is thus impossible anywhere else in the universe.
Christian and creationist are not synonymous nor do all Christians hold the positions you assert in that quote.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 1:22 AM DWIII has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 9:58 AM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 53 (630730)
08-27-2011 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by nlerd
08-26-2011 11:42 PM


Re: Inhabitants Of The Universe
nlerd writes:
I don't really get the arrogance thing but I could see how someone who believes that there is a higher power out there could see it.
It is humbling to admit accountability to a higher power and higher beings capable of doing good or harm to one's self. In Matthew 18:4, Jesus said, "Whoever will humble himself, as this little child will be greatest in the Kingdom of God."
nlerd writes:
Frankly I think its a bit arrogant for someone to believe that their personal "higher power" is the highest level of existence existing in this vast wonderful Universe.
It's all about intelligent design to explain all of the complexity, wonder and order which we observe in this vast wonderful Universe. There's just too much for chaos to naturally emerge into all by it's selfy, imo.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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DWIII
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


Message 39 of 53 (630731)
08-27-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
08-27-2011 7:48 AM


Re: again, try being accurate.
quote:
However, since Christians loathe to consider that this would imply that created life should be common everywhere in the universe, which would undermine the Christian view of Earth's and humanity's "uniquely exalted status", or that the potential discovery of extraterrestrial life would (to them) undermine their opposition to "what evolution teaches", namely that life could "evolve" on any other planet, the creationists would tell you some time later that biological life is restricted solely to this planet (again, citing a truckload of simultaneous physical conditions unique to Earth which they believe life requires) and is thus impossible anywhere else in the universe.
Christian and creationist are not synonymous nor do all Christians hold the positions you assert in that quote.
I certainly do not consider "creationist" and "Christian" synonymous (which is why I referred to both there); but the charge of goal-post-shifting (i.e. making the assertion that the entire universe is fine-tuned for life, and later claiming that only the Earth is) would pretty much apply to the specific subset of Christians who call themselves creationists.

DWIII

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-27-2011 7:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-27-2011 10:01 AM DWIII has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 53 (630732)
08-27-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by DWIII
08-27-2011 9:58 AM


Re: again, try being accurate.
But did you say
quote:
However, since Christians loathe to consider that this would imply that created life should be common everywhere in the universe, which would undermine the Christian view of Earth's and humanity's "uniquely exalted status", or that the potential discovery of extraterrestrial life would (to them) undermine their opposition to "what evolution teaches", namely that life could "evolve" on any other planet,...
Those sure look like you are implying those parts of your statement apply to all Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 9:58 AM DWIII has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 53 (630733)
08-27-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by nlerd
08-26-2011 9:53 PM


Re: Wrong answers
so do you think the universe is the size that its just because thats the size that it is? No knowable reason, just take it as it is.
The universe is expanding. It has varied in size over an incomprehensible number of orders of magnitude over the last 13.7 billion years, and the majority of the universe appears to be inhospitable to life.
There may be a reason that we did not arrive in the universe until it was at something like its current size, but the idea that the universe is fine tuned for size does not seem supportable.

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DWIII
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


Message 42 of 53 (630734)
08-27-2011 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
08-27-2011 10:01 AM


Re: again, try being accurate.
quote:
But did you say
quote:
However, since Christians loathe to consider that this would imply that created life should be common everywhere in the universe, which would undermine the Christian view of Earth's and humanity's "uniquely exalted status", or that the potential discovery of extraterrestrial life would (to them) undermine their opposition to "what evolution teaches", namely that life could "evolve" on any other planet,...
Those sure look like you are implying those parts of your statement apply to all Christians.
Well, perhaps those statements do apply, as far as common perceptions go. I find it amazing how much blather there has been on the subject of the mere existence of any extraterrestrial life being incompatible with Christianity (from opposing sides even!), and stunning near-silence on the possibility that God could just as well have created a vast universe teeming with life, or anything between those two extremes. Why do you suppose that is?

DWIII

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 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-27-2011 10:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-27-2011 11:00 AM DWIII has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 53 (630735)
08-27-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by DWIII
08-27-2011 10:54 AM


Re: again, try being accurate.
Why do I suppose what is?
Isn't all the above just another example of the "common perception" being based on fantasy as opposed to reality?
I can of course totally refute the fact that those assertions apply. I'm a Christian and they don't apply to me or to any of the Christians I regularly associate with.
There is always lots of blather, almost always among folk that are just plain uninformed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 10:54 AM DWIII has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by DWIII, posted 08-27-2011 12:32 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 53 (630740)
08-27-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nlerd
08-26-2011 6:09 PM


nlerd writes:
So far as I understand God created all that exists for man (am I wrong in that assumption?), if that is the case then why is the universe so vast? Seems to be a huge waste of space seeing as how man's purpose (whatever that is) should be achievable on Earth. Maybe God has other projects going on in other parts of the universe?
The heavens declare the glory of God - which, depending on your outlook, will manifest in a couple of ways.
In the believers case, God is known to exist and is in part understood and appreciated through what he has created (personally, tiny insects do it for me given that I'm a mechanical engineer with an particular appreciation for the fantastic mechanics/electrics/software involved in such creatures).
The vastness of the heavens (or intricacy of the microscopic) point to the majesty and scale of God. He is the engineers engineer, the poets poet, the mathematicians mathematician. Presumably he has made them as vast as they are in order that they will produce that same effect in believers no matter how far into the cosmos they advance.
In the unbelievers case, the vastness of the universe is intended to cause awe, humility and not a little discomfort to well up*. Pondering on the heavens (or the vast seas, or the micro world) highlights the apparent insignificance of man and brings it into conflict with that in man which knows he is very significant indeed. This, as part of the mechanism of God intended to cause men to turn back to him. The purpose of such lavish scale is as before: no matter how far men progress, there is only more to wonder about.
*suppressible of course.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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DWIII
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


Message 45 of 53 (630742)
08-27-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
08-27-2011 11:00 AM


Re: again, try being accurate.
quote:
Why do I suppose what is?
That there is so much blather on one side of this subject, but you have already adequately answered that with the following:
There is always lots of blather, almost always among folk that are just plain uninformed.
quote:
Isn't all the above just another example of the "common perception" being based on fantasy as opposed to reality?
It most certainly is. Neither common perceptions nor religious beliefs override reality, but that is beside the point. Please note that this is the "Faith and Belief" subforum, regardless of whether or not beliefs (or even beliefs about beliefs!) correspond with reality.
quote:
I can of course totally refute the fact that those assertions apply. I'm a Christian and they don't apply to me or to any of the Christians I regularly associate with.
Then they don't apply to you, nor to your associates. Relaying a common perception (or misconception) is not the same thing as making a universal claim, but those who would play a "No True Scotsman" fallacy card at this point wouldn't hesitate for a second.

DWIII

This message is a reply to:
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