The Essence Of Faith & Belief.

ringo writes: The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.(seeing how satan hates giving money away )

Why should I work hard for my money every day and then freely give it away with no regard nor care of its impact or significance? In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

Sounds rather cost inefficient to me, though to be fair it is better to give it away than gamble it.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

NoNukes writes: I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time.

I don't see the same people repeatedly.

What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. If he tells me he needs money for food or bus fare, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't polygraph him. I don't follow him and blacklist him if he wasn't telling the truth.

NoNukes writes: As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.

All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.

Phat writes: In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

quote:

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1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

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Maybe you should change the title of the thread to Faith, nebulous Hope, Charity and Belief.

In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?

From a pragmatic view, it is far more cost effecient to set a low bar for welfare recipients than it is to spend massive amounts of money making sure that the recipients are good people. You don't spend a dollar to cure a dime's worth of waste.

ringo writes: All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.

We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.

We don't want to hoard it or waste it. It is wise to use common sense when giving to street people.

Phat writes: We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.

Are we though? Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

Personally, I am quite frugal with my money. I try and avoid starbucks in general--it is simply too expensive. I can buy a whole can of coffee and make my own drink at home. Having more money in my pocket means that if I am sensitive to the Spirit and a panhandler is placed on my heart I can then give them an adequate amount to help them. Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift. God does the choosing...I obey the inner unction.

I don't see the same people repeatedly.

I do.

What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs.

That's fine. Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.

But it's your money and your conscience.

Phat writes: Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.

quote:

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Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

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That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it?

Phat writes: ...I obey the inner unction.

Do you?

quote:

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Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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NoNukes writes: Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do.

I didn't make any claim. I said that I don't like to risk not helping when a couple of dollars might help.

NoNukes writes: You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not.

Your direct experience of a dog with three legs does not disprove the existence of dogs with four legs.

NoNukes writes: And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.

I don't need to show you any evidence that I give a hoot.

Phat writes: Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.

(Whereupon Ringo quotes scripture)

quote:

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Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

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Ringo writes: That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it?

The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other.

If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging.

Mind you, I don't look for excuses not to give, but I also don't simply hand out money to whosoever asks. That isn't wise.

(whereupon ringo again quotes scripture)

quote:

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Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.

Edited by Phat, : added

ringo writes: Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves.

On the other hand, let us not forget our many panhandlers...for we could end up as one of them.

Phat writes: .(seeing how satan hates giving money away )

That's not fair.

In my experience, the devil is far more free with his cash than, say, preachers.

And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them.

Omni writes: And all those prosperity churches had to come from somewhere--Jesus wouldn't fund them.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

My ongoing point with Ringo is that one should use wisdom when giving money away. As for satan....he wont hesitate to buy you a drink, but he is more reluctant to help you move.

Phat writes: A fool and his money are soon parted.

Lovely English proverb, isn't it? More fishwife-like than Christ-like, though.

My ongoing point with Ringo[...]

I noticed that

[...]is that one should use wisdom when giving money away.

Perhaps, like me, Ringo hears quite a bit more "use wisdom" than "give money away." Jesus certainly didn't outline a process for grading the poor to sort out the deserving.

I understand that no one wants to waste money, especially what we can afford to give away. But I'm accustomed to Christians testifying about their faith in the face of great unknowns and trials, so it seems odd: face the lions with panache, sure, but follow Christ's injunction (and Christ) by helping the first and next persons you see in need of help...well, that's just too dicey. How will God know who deserves my help? How will He put them in my path? I just can't believe that bit.

Consider that the person most in need of help, by your rubric, will usually be the person appearing least deserving of it. The person most eligible for help is going to look a lot like you. Should you be right, and Jesus return, which one do you think he'd look like?

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NB:

Now, you know I'm not a Christian, so you're probably thinking some of that criticism just ain't fair. Well, it wasn't criticism so much as commentary on the central fault in modern Christianity--it married money.

Me, I'm more pagan anarchist than anything, prone to giving money away on impulse, guilty of handing out beers to bums walking through the Fens on New Year's eve in Boston. Hell, even winos deserve a drink on New Year's eve. If I happened to run into Jesus there, I definitely gave him a beer.

Edited by Omnivorous, : Nice bunch of guys, too.