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Author | Topic: The Essence Of Faith & Belief. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is there any Biblical support for "the Evil One"?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
introducing The Evil One I kid, I kid.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Dogmafood writes: And yet the very concept of logic, reason, and reality seems to threaten the idea of Faith & Belief, or in other words, whatever the heck we want to believe to be true. ...we should only follow the evidence. I am sure it is what god would want us to do. So many questions, so many directions....and so many tentative conclusions! If I am imagining a God, and that God doesnt stack up to the ways that I was taught that such a God should be, what am I to make of it?
jar writes: Actually, not much. The devil is certainly much discussed and blamed in evangelical circles, however. Perhaps he serves as a scapegoat for the bad behavior of some Christians.
Is there any Biblical support for "the Evil One"?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually that particular "1" is rather rainbow colored...though traditions say that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. (Or perhaps he is gay...)
Every hero needs a villain, though. If we had no global villain to blame the behavioral imperfections of humanity on, it would force us to look smack dab at ourselves and at our inclinations to justify greed, lust, envy, and all the rest of those deadly sins that we do.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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iano writes: Ironically, having the world the way He wants to have it will involve a certain fucking, as you put it, off. Patience, Larni.. Spoken like a man who has not experienced the kind of "fucking off" that is forced on so many innocent's in this world. I agree with Larni... who is actually not-disagreeing with you. As far as I know, you very well may be right.If God exists, I just hope He's not omnipotent. Otherwise He does not deserve anything better than a punch in the nose. An omnipotent God does not deserve to ask for patience if He is so morally void as to have created conditions that allow for some of the things that go on in this world. If the evil that is within this world is required in order for free-will to exist... then a worthy God would never allow this world to come into being in the first place.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith & Belief often involve a belief in God. Some would argue that the uninitiated only know about God, much like a philosophical construct of the human mind, whereas initiates (those saved and/or born again) actually have a personal relationship with (internal communion, if you will) with the Creator of the universe.
Western Christianity seemed to lean towards a Creation/Fall/Redemption paradigm. Eastern Christianity placed less significance on a Fall, and had more of a Creation/Awareness/Decision paradigm. A Western Christian such as yourself may argue that humans are incapable of the ability to even decide proper behavior without a Redeemer. (or the action/decision of redemption.) Eastern Christians may argue that humans are now aware and have the decision to accept the responsibility of a life dedicated to serving others. I have a question for you, Ian. Were God taken out of the equation, what would people even have as far as Belief goes? Whom would we believe in?> Ourselves? Humanity? Would it work?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Every hero needs a villain, though. God doesn't need anything.
If we had no global villain to blame the behavioral imperfections of humanity on, it would force us to look smack dab at ourselves and at our inclinations to justify greed, lust, envy, and all the rest of those deadly sins that we do. Or to God, shemself.... "Its not our fault, that's just the way God made us."
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Stile writes:
quote: There are various ways to measure an perfect world. The one I find myself admiring is the one which utilises all the good and all the evil - and the apparently unbalanced way in which both are doled out - to produce a situation where every single person ever born gets an equal chance at eternal life.
quote: Since it's the freewill that generates the evil (and the good you don't mention), a restriction in freewill would indeed temper the extent of evil doing. Would you prefer that, to have a dampened down freewill, capable neither of good nor evil. Not capable of shaking it's fist at it's creator? Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
iano writes: Since it's the freewill that generates the evil (and the good you don't mention), a restriction in freewill would indeed temper the extent of evil doing. Would you prefer that, to have a dampened down freewill, capable neither of good nor evil. Not capable of shaking it's fist at it's creator? Of course. A world with no free will is exceedingly morally above a world such as the one we live in. I don't think you get it... the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good. If this is the way the world must be... any capable worthy or just judge would not create this world in the first place. Edited by Stile, : Changed "allow this world to exist" to "create this world in the first place" so as to re-emphasize the context of this discussion.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
quote: Without freewill there are no morals to speak of.
quote: Source?
quote: Freewill of the highest order will have the potential to produce evil of the highest order, true. But since that which is on offer is for us to completely merge with the godhead (or be completely demerged from it), I don't really see how the offer can be extended to amoeba. The highest stakes call for the very highest grade of free will. For better or worse.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
iano writes: Without freewill there are no morals to speak of. God doesn't have morals?
iano writes: Stile writes: I don't think you get it... the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good. Source? Best answered with another question:How many innocent lives do you think should be tortuously ruined beyond imagination, just so you can freely choose chocolate ice-cream for dessert? Freewill of the highest order will have the potential to produce evil of the highest order, true. But since that which is on offer is for us to completely merge with the godhead (or be completely demerged from it), I don't really see how the offer can be extended to amoeba. The highest stakes call for the very highest grade of free will. For better or worse. Agreed. And it is, obviously, for far, far worse. So bad, that it would take a derranged lunatic to create such a world in the first place. Again, how many women would you allow to be raped so that you can have "free will of the highest order?"If your answer is greater than zero... I don't see how you can claim any sort of moral highground. That isn't even the worst of what goes on in this world... The point isn't that free-will has a consequence of evil... I agree with you.The point is that the evil that exists in this world simply isn't worth the free-will that provides it. If you think it is, please, let me know: How many innocent children need to die by torture, without knowing what love is, just so that you can have "free will of the highest order?"How many are worth it for you? Do we really have to ask these questions? It's pretty obvious that the free-will available just doesn't balance with the amount of evil present. Therefore... if a God actually set this up, then that God isn't worthy and deserves a punch in the nose (to say the least).
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I disagree. Some evidence is required for faith.
How could one have faith in something one has never heard of? We must assume we can trust our senses else we may as well give up any enquiry as we never be confident that what we know is accurate.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But the evidence need only be sufficient to convince the individual.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
As an aside the psychologist in me does wonder about the need for certainty biblical literalists seem to have about the nature of their god. It has always astounded me how child-like our gods are. Why should a Universal deity insist on being worshipped? Why should it be vengeful or jealous? Why would it have any ego at all? Does the ego not arise from comparing oneself to one’s peers?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
If I am imagining a God, and that God doesnt stack up to the ways that I was taught that such a God should be, what am I to make of it? The creation or imagining of god is our projection of utopia. The embodiment of hope and desire for perfection. You should disregard the projections of others and go with your gut. If there is a god and he made some laws then those laws can not be broken. They are (edit; would be) the laws of nature. The gods of old are the first hazy attempt to understand those laws. Science today is the heartfelt and honest pursuit of understanding those laws. Does it make any sense, at all, that an eternal creator would require a book to manifest itself in the world? Edited by Dogmafood, : correct teh historical record.
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