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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 158 of 189 (871944)
02-16-2020 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
02-16-2020 12:38 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:
Oh well, no need to drag this out I guess. I believe they are demons. I suppose you believe they are some kind of brain effect. I think they are demons doing their usual thing of misleading human beings. These crazy people are simply people who have accumulated (or perhaps inherited)_enough sins to allow the demons to operate in this way. We all have sins but not all of us have sinned to the point that demons are allowed to inhabit us and mislead us so directly.
As a believer, I won't disagree with the possibility. There has been a lot of documentation within the churches about demons...but of course, if demons did exist, we would have to realize several things.
1) They have been around for thousands of years and if capable of learning how to be more and more diabolical, they would know human nature inside out. They would also know that modern-day humans rely more on logic, reason, and critical thinking than we do myths, legends, and a propensity to believe any and all supernatural storylines--be they leprechauns, Big Foot, Loch ness, or Aliens.
As you know, I once heard a chorus of "voices" come from an oppressed friend. They clearly said "The Blood! The Blood! No No, NOT The Blood"! Tangle will stand on his assertion that religion is entirely a product of culture and that I would never hear voices from another religious belief. One Pastor I know told me that he once heard "tongues" from an African Tribe who worshipped demons...so in that context, he was referring to speaking in tongues as clearly NOT proof of God.
One more thing. IF the supernatural is real, I theorize that it has malevolent intent and some degree of intelligence behind it. Were an Antichrist to someday show up, He likely would convince the secular scientists that he was from another planet rather than a character from Biblical mythos. They would likely believe that!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 2:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 159 of 189 (871945)
02-16-2020 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
02-16-2020 2:05 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
tangle writes:
3rd time - they are real to the individual, to everyone else they are delusional. In what sense can someone saying they are Napoleon be real?
Normally this is true. I studied Psychology for several years and I know all too well the theories of Confirmation Bias, Schizophrenia, and Multiple Personality Disorder...among others.
As to my personal experience of hearing voices, the one time I heard an audible voice I was by myself, but the other time when I heard a chorus of voices there were two other friends with me who clearly heard the same thing. What theory would explain that?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 2:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 2:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 162 of 189 (871948)
02-16-2020 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Tangle
02-16-2020 2:51 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Except that this happened a year or so after i "got saved" and that I was under the influence of no mind-altering substance except arguably the groupthink itself. Still, we clearly did hear and experience something together. It was at my house and not at the church. To this day, were you to ask any of us what we experienced our stories would likely match.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 2:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 3:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 163 of 189 (871949)
02-16-2020 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
02-16-2020 10:34 AM


Re: Necessity of a Deity
jar writes:
Remember, there was a lot to be learned at Fosters.
But can we really conclude that its all in our imaginations? I am not convinced....

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 02-16-2020 10:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 02-16-2020 3:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 173 of 189 (872019)
02-18-2020 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Hyroglyphx
02-18-2020 12:55 PM


Examining Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
John Oliver most definitely makes his point with cusswords and an undercurrent of humor. I have seen his show a time or two, but felt that it was fair to look a bit deeper into this man and what his show represents to the Public.
I started here.
Wikipedia. I was impressed with the number of journalism awards he has won for the show and of how he has
quote:
stated that he has "full creative freedom, including free rein to criticize corporations".
I notice that he has criticized many diverse elements operating with impunity within our society, including shows on the following:
quote:
  • "Tobacco" is a segment about the tobacco industry, which aired on February 15, 2015, as part of the second episode of the second season. During the eighteen-minute segment, Oliver discusses tobacco industry trends and practices. He also introduces Jeff the Diseased Lung, a mascot he created for the American global cigarette and tobacco company Philip Morris International, the makers of Marlboro brand of cigarettes. The anthropomorphic diseased lung, who smokes and coughs, has been compared to Joe Camel and the Marlboro Man. Oliver and his team promoted the cartoon character by sending shirts with Jeff's image to Togo and displaying billboards in Uruguay, and by encouraging use of the hashtag #JeffWeCan, which trended on Twitter following the broadcast.
    The segment received widespread media coverage, with several outlets praising Oliver's ability to launch successful marketing campaigns and change perceptions about smoking through the creation of the mascot. The mascot later made an appearance at a protest organized by the "Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids" in New York City in May 2015.[103][104]
    Philip Morris International issued a response to the segment, stating that it included "many mischaracterizations" of the company.[105]
  • Stranger Than Truth: John Oliver's 101 Favorite History Lies
    There is absolutely nothing more fun than lying confidently about history. Lying is incredibly fun. In fact, the only thing that feels better than lying to someone is lying to someone, then regaining their trust, and then lying to them again. This book, for example, was promised to be released in April 2016. But that was a lie. The plan was always October 2018. Because, you know, now is a time in history when lying openly gets you elected to office.
    In this book, you will find plenty of plausible but completely unverifiable nonsense. Almost like watching Fox News but with a better sense of humor. Hopefully, it will teach you much about nothing other than the true joy of lying to people. Honestly, there has never been a better moment in history to be a liar. We have reached a point where truths have become lies and lies are now the truth. So learn from the greatest and get inspired by the best lies in history.
  • In August 2015, after delivering his "Televangelists" segment, Oliver hired a professional tax lawyer to set up a church called Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption as a legal entity. He did this partly as a way to demonstrate how "disturbingly easy" it is, in terms of paperwork, to set up a tax-exempt religious organization as viewed by the Internal Revenue Service. As Oliver explained, the requirements needed to be defined as a "church" are quite broad. Since regulatory guidelines require an established location for a church, Oliver chose his studio location in New York City as its official location,[107] although he registered the nonprofit organization in the state of Texas.[108] Oliver's "megachurch" had a toll-free phone number which allowed callers to donate to the church, and said that any money collected would be redistributed to the charitable relief organization Doctors Without Borders.[109][110] Oliver announced the formation of his church on the episode of the show that aired on August 16, 2015.[111](...)A week later, on the following episode, Oliver devoted a short segment to the donations the church had received, which included money from around the world. Oliver said he had received "thousands of envelopes with thousands of dollars" from donors. Displayed were several US Post Office containers full of mail. Oliver told viewers that the more money they sent in, the more "blessings" would be returned to them, adding that "that is still something I'm amazingly legally allowed to say."[114]
    Oliver announced that the Church would be shutting down during his show on September 13, 2015. All monetary donations have been forwarded to Doctors Without Borders.[115]
  • wiki writes:
    Oliver lives in New York City with his wife Kate Norley, an Iraq War veteran who served as a United States Army medic.[108] Oliver has said that they met at the 2008 Republican National Convention; he was doing a piece for The Daily Show and Norley was campaigning with Vets for Freedom. She and other veterans hid Oliver, the other correspondents, and the camera crew from security.[109][110] The two married in October 2011.[1] Together, the couple have two sons, one born prematurely[111] in 2015[112][113] and one born in 2018.[114] Oliver occasionally wears a 1st Cavalry Division lapel pin — his wife's unit in Iraq.[115] He has a younger sister who lives in Australia.[116]
    I like this guy.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-18-2020 12:55 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 186 of 189 (872083)
    02-19-2020 4:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 185 by jar
    02-19-2020 7:47 AM


    Re: Who here are the Bible Belivers?
    jar addressing Faith writes:
    But all the evidence here Faith shows that it is the Atheists and not the self-proclaimed "Bible Believers" that actually believe the Bible says what is really written in the stories and means what is really written in the stories.
    I would argue that you are pandering to your pet theory that many more atheists will be in Heaven than will Christians. They may well believe that what is written is plainly evident. There is no meaning apart from what humans ascribe to each other, in their worldview. I argue that the book only has meaning due to the Character behind, within, and inclusive of the book coupled with the human experience.
    Thus a believer.
    They would argue that it is only humans. Thus a secular humanist.
    Perhaps now would be a good time to remind us of the greatest commandment, parts one and two. Then you will ask me what the evidence shows and then I will again ask how you can claim to be a believer without some sort of internal confirmation and you will finally say that it is personal and not part of the topic. Close?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 185 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 7:47 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 187 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 5:31 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 188 of 189 (872104)
    02-20-2020 10:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 187 by jar
    02-19-2020 5:31 PM


    Re: Who here are the Bible Belivers?
    jar writes:
    Belief confirmed becomes knowledge
    Would you say that during the time of Jesus on earth, Christianity was more mystical, abstract, and undefined whereas when our buddy paul came along and sought to expand the franchise the belief statements, creeds, and articles of faith became knowledge and franchise by-laws rather than the mystical relationship which the earlier Christians had?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 187 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 5:31 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 189 by jar, posted 02-20-2020 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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