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Author | Topic: The Essence Of Faith & Belief. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who appointed Him Judge? Do we humans have the ability to judge the Judge? Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellllling.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Not at all. I stand for collective authority. To paraphrase Thomas Paine, the people are better off being governed by themselves instead of by some distant despot.
... no authority save our own. Phat writes:
I certainly distrust His self-proclaimed messengers. How many times do we have to go through this? The people who claim to be "in communion" with God are a bunch of yahoos that I wouldn't trust with my lawnmower, much less life-and-death decisions.
Perhaps you mistrust the Creator. Phat writes:
His representatives did, in His name. Why should I believe them when they say He is good and Satan is evil?
Did God cause any wars? Phat writes:
Not if your God is real.
Humans are their own worst enemy. Phat writes:
The question was: Who put God in charge of putting anybody in charge? Who put Him in charge of judging our failures? Thus...as to the question of who put God in charge? I would answer by saying that God put us in charge and we have failed miserably. Lee Harvey Oswald was a self-appointed judge, jury and executioner too. It's not always a good idea. Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellig.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why limit it to our lifetimes? If the afterlife is supposedly more important than the present life, why should the standards for it be lower?
God ultimately has absolute and unlimited power, but in our lifetimes He has allowed us some room to question, challenge, and deny...should we so desire.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I too would be happy to find it true - but it isn't. I didn't "need" it, but I was very happy to find it true.![]()
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Heard it, believed it, thought about it, realized it was bunk. No ears to hear I guess.![]()
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The idea that we should provide a homeless man with food is more "truth" than anything you'll ever hear about gods, the afterlife, etc.
Is truth providing a homeless man some food? Phat writes:
Giving him the dignity of making his own decision is in the same ballpark as giving him food. If he got a little respect from other people, he might find some respect for himself and turn his own life around. So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.
How about buying him a beer? Phat writes:
Most likely, yes, but we aren't always good at predicting which is which. When Safeway boots you out the door a year before retirement and you're looking for a new job, that CEO who interviews you might say, "Hey, I remember you. You gave me a dollar once when I was down and out. I spent it on beer but it gave me something to think about. It really changed my life." Is it true that some folks won't be helped by the beer and others would? It might take a thousand of us to have one turn out like that, but isn't it worth it?
Phat writes:
No.
Is truth determined through facts? Evidence?Are there other ways to discern truth?
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
That's exactly my point: I don't know. Maybe never. Maybe forty times. How often have you helped a homeless person by giving him a beer? Call it my version of Pascal's wager if you like but I don't want to risk not helping somebody. I give a dollar to anybody who asks. Ask and ye shall receive.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
I'm not "advising" anything; I'm pointing out why one approach might possibly have good results. And no, there is no way of following up on the results of every dollar I give away. You are advising that giving out beer money might help boost self-esteem, but you actually have no reason or experience to share with us about any results. The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing. Edited by ringo, : Rearranged negatives.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I don't see the same people repeatedly. I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time. What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. If he tells me he needs money for food or bus fare, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't polygraph him. I don't follow him and blacklist him if he wasn't telling the truth.
NoNukes writes:
All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.
As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?quote:Maybe you should change the title of the thread to Faith, nebulous Hope, Charity and Belief.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are we though? Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?
We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.quote:That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it? Phat writes:
Do you?
...I obey the inner unction.quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I didn't make any claim. I said that I don't like to risk not helping when a couple of dollars might help.
Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. NoNukes writes:
Your direct experience of a dog with three legs does not disprove the existence of dogs with four legs.
You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. NoNukes writes:
I don't need to show you any evidence that I give a hoot.
And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, it draws a pretty distinct parallel between what we do for our own children and what God does for his children. The implication is that we should treat all people the same as we treat our children.
The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other. Phat writes:
If more Christians trusted God, they might actually DO what Jesus said: sell what they have, give to the poor and follow Him.
If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging. Phat writes:
So you wouldn't ask and receive, like Jesus said. You'd just sit and wait to receive. I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.![]()
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ringo Member (Idle past 736 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course I spend money on myself too (though I've never been to Starbucks). But I'm the one who gets the flak when I suggest that it's okay to give money to panhandlers.
ringo writes:
It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves. Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?
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